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Thread: Unsure of Torque Management settings

  1. #1
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    Unsure of Torque Management settings

    This has been tweaked back and forth and all around and I've no idea what I am doing............. LOL DUH!
    Seriously, I am not sure which of the settings needs to be set a certain way so the engine "can be " break torqued up near our factory stall. I can't even get past 1800rpm
    Which setting allows the engine to stall slightly higher based on the settings?
    Any help please and thanks?
    It is a 4l70E 2077 TBSS

    Thanks
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    Are you trying to power brake? Like to do a burnout?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMARO416 View Post
    Are you trying to power brake? Like to do a burnout?
    Yes, but not for a burnout, this is stock AWD, I'm trying to reduce a little lag at launch and can't seem to figure out the settings that will let it rev a little while the brake is on. It starts pushing the truck at around 1600 rpm even if I stand on the brake
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    Does your log show the throttle opening to a certain point and then stopping, even though pedal keeps increasing? If not, nothing in the tune is holding it back. The stock converter just isn't going to go much over what you're seeing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    Does your log show the throttle opening to a certain point and then stopping, even though pedal keeps increasing? If not, nothing in the tune is holding it back. The stock converter just isn't going to go much over what you're seeing.
    Well, yes, the glitch on these ECU's I read was throttle actuator will show 100%, but throttle only goes to 83% (which I'm told is max shown in HPT)
    I thought I read someplace our stock verters were like 2000 to 2100 rpm, is this not the case?
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    If it pushes through the brakes at 1800, how can a change in the tune allow it to go higher? It would still overcome the brakes at 1800 unless you physically change to a different, looser converter.

    As for the log reading APP max at 83% vs 100%, it depends which channel(s) you choose. I don't remember if it's the generic or specific one that reads low (though to the ECM, 83% is 'learned' as 100%, it just displays funny). Whichever one you're using, try the other one.

    screenshot.23-05-2020 14.22.39.png

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    I wasn't sure if there was a setting that controlled an RPM range for stall. Not looking for cammed type, just a touch of rev.
    Thanks for the tip on PID channels and settings, I fool with them later for sure, I am still leaning out the really low end and idle, every where else looks pretty good so far.
    Albeit, I was getting a big blip of KR at shifts, but switched some TQ reduction and pressure numbers, seems to have helped. Still get a .02 to .03 or so at initial throttle touch or additional pressure quickly.
    All in all she's a big ol Gal, but runs fun!
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    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    If it pushes through the brakes at 1800, how can a change in the tune allow it to go higher? "Just FYI, there was a setting in the trans area of tune in my Regal which had the 4T65EHD. 2300 was where I set it." It would still overcome the brakes at 1800 unless you physically change to a different, looser converter.

    There are so many settings and things in the editor for trans and TQ management, takes a good while to learn them and I've posted many questions, just no responses. I'd take a link to (all things 4L70) if anyone has one.

    As for the log reading APP max at 83% vs 100%, it depends which channel(s) you choose. I don't remember if it's the generic or specific one that reads low (though to the ECM, 83% is 'learned' as 100%, it just displays funny). Whichever one you're using, try the other one.

    screenshot.23-05-2020 14.22.39.png
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    Well, I am going off the assumption that you have already maxed out/at least increased the limits set in:
    Engine > Torque Management > General:
    - Torque Limit vs RPM, Max Torque [Gear]
    - Brake Torque Management, Brake Torque Limit (this should be at max in stock form, all except the '0% Throttle' row, which won't affect this)
    and
    Trans > Torque Management:
    - Stall Torque Mgt


    The only TM settings that need to be left in place (or increased...) to keep the mechanical bits alive - as long as we are talking about a truck with minor bolt-ons and not something that's got a blower and makes 3 times the stock power and trying to limp along with the rest of the drivetrain bone stock) - are the ones that pull torque during the shifts (Torque Reduction vs Torque vs Shift - Pattern X/Y/Z).

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    Forgot to mention, don't mess with 'Abuse Mode', leave that stock. Unless you have a genuine need to do WOT neutral-drops and have a rollback on standby so you can get home afterwards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    Well, I am going off the assumption that you have already maxed out/at least increased the limits set in:
    Engine > Torque Management > General:
    - Torque Limit vs RPM, Max Torque [Gear] Well I didn't "max" the individual gears but I added 20% (i wonder if the tune didn't like this and I'll explain in a bit) but the Max TQ> RPM vs. Gear is at 6042. (I thought I read or saw a post that said to use that number for "max anywhere" Increased Trans input/output max 2800 and 5800, front and rear axle/propshaft is all 96,672.
    - Brake Torque Management, Brake Torque Limit (this should be at max in stock form, all except the '0% Throttle' row, which won't affect this) I "had it set" at all 6042, changed it back to stock which lowered Row 0, but all else is still 6042. The question here is do I use the "disable by TCS" enabled or disabled.
    and
    Trans > Torque Management:
    - Stall Torque Mgt Here I get confused, the RPM to set this, I've seen it a dozen ways. Do I want "Stall Torque Management"? Like 800 rpm to 6500 rpm or all maxed over 6500 rpm? I guess Idon't quite understand how this one works.
    The problem I have, once I did these adjustments, the tune wrote and immediately once I applied any throttle it went into P0606 error
    Screenshot (13).png

    I had another tune "timeout" during a tranny write and this happened, I went back 1 tune, did a write entire and got tranny working, but every since, the PID shows shift mode "unknown: 80"
    I tried a couple similar things with this tune (posted), but the minute I applied any throttle, limp mode and same code.
    So I ended up going back to an earlier good tune I needed a little tweak to, did a write entire on ECU and TCM and we're back working, but still PID
    "unknown: 80" error.
    The reaon I am posting this tune, is that I read someplace that settings dealing with any of the torque management, between the ECU and TCM that may not be set to work well together can cause this, but I couldn't figure out what it could have been.

    05-23-20 best engine tune to date w-noted adjustments.hpt



    The only TM settings that need to be left in place (or increased...) to keep the mechanical bits alive - as long as we are talking about a truck with minor bolt-ons and not something that's got a blower and makes 3 times the stock power and trying to limp along with the rest of the drivetrain bone stock) - are the ones that pull torque during the shifts (Torque Reduction vs Torque vs Shift - Pattern X/Y/Z).
    Just a reminder, I am stock except air intake and muffler setup. I just know this truck has more in it then the stock tune showed. The beliefs go both ways it seems as to tune a street car or not, I think any ponies and mpg is worth the effort. Most say it is bad for the car, but I can't see + or - 1 or 2 LTFT as bad when my stock tune went as lean as 5 and 6 on a highway cruise.

    Now if I can just figure out how to get rid of the KR that I get at and just after shifts, I'll be good to go (well once I re-tweak the tune I had to write to get back going again)
    Thanks for the help and any ideas/knowledge you care to share, always appreciated.
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    "To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature; but it is easier understood than explained...Speed is the second oldest animal craving in our nature..." -- T. E. Lawrence
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    Wow, that's a lot to unpack.

    I think you need to investigate 'burst knock', which is a calculated/predictive thing, not actual knock detected by the sensors. There are changes you can make to turn it down if that tiny amount of KR is really bothering you.

    The Trans Shift Mode PID doesn't work, it's never shown anything usable on my truck either. Delete it from both your channels list and your brain and never waste time on it again.

    Does your truck have rear air suspension? If yes, do you remember to always pull the ECAS fuse before flashing? If the compressor kicks on during a write it can pull the system voltage down enough to cause a glitch. I've been bit by that myself. Pull the fuse before flashing.

    Instead of a whole bunch of back and forth and triple-nested replies, here's your tune file with what I would change as a starting point.

    SAMPLE - 1GNET13H572242745.hpt

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    stall speed is based on engine torque, and is set physically by the parts inside a converter



    That said, if you 'tuned' the engine to make more torque, the stall will seem higher

    ex. Increasing the pressure inside intake manifold either from increase throttle position or forced induction both will increase torque

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    But, if the engine makes 300lb/ft and pushes through the brakes at 1800 RPM, and you add a blower and the engine then makes a max of 600lb/ft, it will STILL push through the brakes at the same 1800 RPM. Because the holding power of the brakes and the converter's torque multiplication at 1800 are both unchanged.

    Actual stall speed won't be known unless you do something like rolling with engine at idle speed, trans locked into 3rd gear, and nail the throttle. RPM will go to the true stall speed and hold there until the rest of the drivetrain speed catches up. With a tight stock converter the amount of time it hangs there at the stall speed is very short; compare to something like a drag car with a powerglide and a really loose converter, where engine RPM is flat for a long time and only after a while does RPM increase with wheel speed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    Wow, that's a lot to unpack.

    I think you need to investigate 'burst knock', which is a calculated/predictive thing, not actual knock detected by the sensors. There are changes you can make to turn it down if that tiny amount of KR is really bothering you.

    The Trans Shift Mode PID doesn't work, it's never shown anything usable on my truck either. Delete it from both your channels list and your brain and never waste time on it again.

    Does your truck have rear air suspension? If yes, do you remember to always pull the ECAS fuse before flashing? If the compressor kicks on during a write it can pull the system voltage down enough to cause a glitch. I've been bit by that myself. Pull the fuse before flashing.

    Instead of a whole bunch of back and forth and triple-nested replies, here's your tune file with what I would change as a starting point.

    SAMPLE - 1GNET13H572242745.hpt
    Thanks a bunch for the info, I will check it out! "is any burst knock changes in there"?

    Which was the " a lot to unpack"?, the tune changes made or tune itself?..... This was done over time, I didn't just stab all this on in one sitting..........LOL

    Starting with the "burst knock", I've read all I could find, but never understood quite what it does. As for KR, how much is too much and how bad is the blips I am seeing? I know they have to do with shift points, they last about 1000rpm and happen just at and after the shift indicator goes from 1>3 or 2>3. As for the investigation, will I see any change in your share tune when I compare? I do know the tune you just reviewed and adjusted did produce more KR, when I pushed the throttle down rapidly.

    The trans shift mode worked fine prior to the first "interrupted trans write" that introduced me to p0606 "YUR CREWED" Mode. I'll head your advice and rid the list. I'm still playing with the Accelerator/throttle PID's to find ones that aren't all different.

    AS for air ride, yes, it does, but it only adjusts upon the "key on" initially, I've never had it adjust during a tune, I even disable DRL's
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    "To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature; but it is easier understood than explained...Speed is the second oldest animal craving in our nature..." -- T. E. Lawrence
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    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    Wow, that's a lot to unpack.

    I think you need to investigate 'burst knock', which is a calculated/predictive thing, not actual knock detected by the sensors. There are changes you can make to turn it down if that tiny amount of KR is really bothering you.

    The Trans Shift Mode PID doesn't work, it's never shown anything usable on my truck either. Delete it from both your channels list and your brain and never waste time on it again.

    Does your truck have rear air suspension? If yes, do you remember to always pull the ECAS fuse before flashing? If the compressor kicks on during a write it can pull the system voltage down enough to cause a glitch. I've been bit by that myself. Pull the fuse before flashing.

    Instead of a whole bunch of back and forth and triple-nested replies, here's your tune file with what I would change as a starting point.

    SAMPLE - 1GNET13H572242745.hpt
    Thanks a bunch for the info, I will check it out! "is any burst knock changes in there"?

    Which was the " a lot to unpack"?, the tune changes made or tune itself?..... This was done over time, I didn't just stab all this on in one sitting..........LOL

    Starting with the "burst knock", I've read all I could find, but never understood quite what it does. As for KR, how much is too much and how bad is the blips I am seeing? I know they have to do with shift points, they last about 1000rpm and happen just at and after the shift indicator goes from 1>3 or 2>3. As for the investigation, will I see any change in your share tune when I compare? I do know the tune you just reviewed and adjusted did produce more KR, when I pushed the throttle down rapidly.

    The trans shift mode worked fine prior to the first "interrupted trans write" that introduced me to p0606 "YUR CREWED" Mode. I'll head your advice and rid the list. I'm still playing with the Accelerator/throttle PID's to find ones that aren't all different.

    AS for air ride, yes, it does, but it only adjusts upon the "key on" initially, I've never had it adjust during a tune, I even disable DRL's

    I STILL am just not understanding the Burst KR settings. I get the concept, but still not sure of settings, 0 all out, reduce, turn off, I am really confused from all I've read thus far.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00GrcyGtr View Post
    Thanks a bunch for the info, I will check it out! "is any burst knock changes in there"?

    Which was the " a lot to unpack"?, the tune changes made or tune itself?..... This was done over time, I didn't just stab all this on in one sitting..........LOL

    Starting with the "burst knock", I've read all I could find, but never understood quite what it does. As for KR, how much is too much and how bad is the blips I am seeing? I know they have to do with shift points, they last about 1000rpm and happen just at and after the shift indicator goes from 1>3 or 2>3. As for the investigation, will I see any change in your share tune when I compare? I do know the tune you just reviewed and adjusted did produce more KR, when I pushed the throttle down rapidly.

    The trans shift mode worked fine prior to the first "interrupted trans write" that introduced me to p0606 "YUR CREWED" Mode. I'll head your advice and rid the list. I'm still playing with the Accelerator/throttle PID's to find ones that aren't all different.

    AS for air ride, yes, it does, but it only adjusts upon the "key on" initially, I've never had it adjust during a tune, I even disable DRL's

    using a log, remove timing wherever you see KR.
    If the KR goes away, great.
    If it doesn't, use race fuel to verify it's not real knock, after which you will de-sensitize the knock table, or (preferably) figure out where the noise is coming from, probably a metal part such as exhaust rubbing on the frame or something. Look for contact points around the engine and transmission and check the trans/engine mounts for play. Those movements can cause false knock. Maybe try new knock sensors or cleaning the old ones. Stuff like that.

    Burst knock is wonderful feature that alot of people disable but I fucking love it. all it does it remove timing based on sudden throttle transitions as far as i can tell. I have mine set to just pull a degree or two if I suddenly step down on the throttle. Kinda what it was meant to do I think. It doesn't use the knock sensor and the activation is arbitrary with respect to the rest of the tune. the idea is, the computer lags slightly, so when you floor it and the pressure suddenly rises rapidly there are still a number of combustion events which occur during the transition before the map sensor can catch up with the new data. So its like a protective feature for a sudden transition which makes up for the lag of the electronics and lag of pressure transitions.
    Last edited by kingtal0n; 5 Days Ago at 10:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    Wow, that's a lot to unpack.

    I think you need to investigate 'burst knock', which is a calculated/predictive thing, not actual knock detected by the sensors. There are changes you can make to turn it down if that tiny amount of KR is really bothering you.

    The Trans Shift Mode PID doesn't work, it's never shown anything usable on my truck either. Delete it from both your channels list and your brain and never waste time on it again.

    Does your truck have rear air suspension? If yes, do you remember to always pull the ECAS fuse before flashing? If the compressor kicks on during a write it can pull the system voltage down enough to cause a glitch. I've been bit by that myself. Pull the fuse before flashing.

    Instead of a whole bunch of back and forth and triple-nested replies, here's your tune file with what I would change as a starting point.

    SAMPLE - 1GNET13H572242745.hpt
    Hey man, I took your tweaks and tried my tune, I ended up making a tweaks to the MAF, the Spark and the VVE, all very minor and these two logs (in the learn state) are what I have ended up with. The time difference was waiting in line at the McD's for 10 minutes, but I'll share the tune as well and if you care to critiques at all, please do. I don't quite get the Burst Knock settings so you could have a look there, but the initial "on throttle" blip is tiny and I am not getting any at the shift points like I was.
    The truck feels a tad lazy at the initial throttle hit from a dead stop, but otherwise she moves good for a big ol girl. I have no idea what setting may have caused this lazy moment to come back, but please share if you see anything.
    A huge thanks again by the way. FYI (the notes are things I did one at a time, then left or changed back possibly. I logged a total of 2.5 hours up to these last 2

    1st log after last adjustments (beginning of learn period)

    20-05-25 16-39-23.hpl

    2nd log after a waiting period at idle or off (same tune, more LTFT learn time)

    20-05-25 16-48-16.hpl

    Tune as it is with much of your suggestions.

    05-25-20 v2 from blindsquirrel - 3.0 plus 1.1 MAF adjusted.hpt

    Should you decide to review this and have ANY thoughts, PLEASE by all means share. I would like to ask one question though. I am having some work done, oil leak fix and A/C replaced, while there they are swapping the factory muffler with a Flowmaster higher flowing twin chamber (isn't supposed to be much louder unless WOT. BUT, it should help it breath, in which case, I would ask "where would my tune be needing it's 1st possible adjustment if any"?

    Thanks again man, you shoot straight and I like that!
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  19. #19
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    Burst Knock Info

    Quote Originally Posted by kingtal0n View Post
    using a log, remove timing wherever you see KR.
    If the KR goes away, great.
    If it doesn't, use race fuel to verify it's not real knock, after which you will de-sensitize the knock table, or (preferably) figure out where the noise is coming from, probably a metal part such as exhaust rubbing on the frame or something. Look for contact points around the engine and transmission and check the trans/engine mounts for play. Those movements can cause false knock. Maybe try new knock sensors or cleaning the old ones. Stuff like that.

    Burst knock is wonderful feature that alot of people disable but I fucking love it. all it does it remove timing based on sudden throttle transitions as far as i can tell. I have mine set to just pull a degree or two if I suddenly step down on the throttle. Kinda what it was meant to do I think. It doesn't use the knock sensor and the activation is arbitrary with respect to the rest of the tune. the idea is, the computer lags slightly, so when you floor it and the pressure suddenly rises rapidly there are still a number of combustion events which occur during the transition before the map sensor can catch up with the new data. So its like a protective feature for a sudden transition which makes up for the lag of the electronics and lag of pressure transitions.
    There is not enough knock to hear anything pinging, the truck is solid and tight. The "on throttle blip" I get is only .1 to .2, the other areas couldn't be really adjusted out quite like you are thinking though. I did do some adjusting, and I did play with the Burst Knock, so now no big blips at shifts.
    The torque reduction was set pretty high to as not to slam the bands, but it does it with spark retard. The KR came from going to a really low or negative spark back to the higher advance setting while upping RPM's and lasted half a second, every shift, up or down 1>2, 2>3 or even it I manually shifted down or used the throttle to go down a gear, same KR reaction. It was always a 1/2 second bust from 2 to 6, lasting about 1000rpm then gone. It didn't creep in either, it was bam, there and then gone.
    Have a look at what I shared above (hoping blindsquirrel) will review it once more, I'll take honest dependable suggestions like those you posted. as for race fuel, getting to that is well.. REAL easy, as this is at my brothers place. This is the shop portion of over 10,000SF of showing area, machine room and this area.

    94178544_3168240696554206_924124993271365632_n.jpg Work shop area, next to machine room

    60428467_10217554857296016_1909361139167264768_o.jpg Show area

    My KR experience started back in the late 60's and early 70's where YOU HEARD the ping, mess with the dwell and the points and set timing with a light, then I learned the "tuning side" of it with my first W Body S/C Regal GSE. Those things are KR friggin CRAZY! But that big ol boat would fly.....

    msg-21535-0-85646300-1500493852.jpg

    unnamed-II.jpg
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    "To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature; but it is easier understood than explained...Speed is the second oldest animal craving in our nature..." -- T. E. Lawrence
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  20. #20
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    TBSS' don't brake launch well with the factory torque converter, period. You can disable a bunch of TM in the tune, there's a lot of questions to sift through in this thread so I'll have to look at it again tonight. I'll download and look through the TM settings in your tune then.

    If you want to really optimize your launch, you need to pull the ABS/StabiliTrak fuse (or put it on a switch) and put a 3000+ converter in. I've found on my full bolt on 08 TBSS (no converter yet), the fastest track times come from launching around 1200-1500rpms on the foot brake. Any higher and I've found it bogs off the line and is slower through the 1/4.
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