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Thread: Unsure of Torque Management settings

  1. #21
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    I didn't change anything with the burst knock in that sample. It's probably best if you figure that out yourself, as 'opinions differ' and all that, and you might like it best the way that someone else considers 'wrong'. Personally if the amount being pulled is as small as you say I wouldn't worry about it. If you do decide to change it, keep reading stuff that seems like nonsense for long enough and eventually one day you'll realize you understand what they are talking about. Once you understand how it works you can decide how to make it do what you want.

    If my sample reduced any burst knock, that's probably just because of the increased retard during shifts. AFAIK the ECM treats any load transition as a transient for the purposes of predicting burst knock, whether that comes from a trans shift or throttle change.

    What I meant by 'a lot to unpack' was, this started as a seemingly straightforward question about TM settings that might affect brake stall RPM, and now we're talking about burst knock, mufflers and MAF curves...

    Doing a compare between some of your files, you are making changes in some of the ETC tables that have EXPLICIT WARNINGS in the infotab at the bottom to NOT MESS WITH, because HPT cannot access the two tune segments where the true throttle controls live, and if you make certain changes to the accessible parts that don't play nice with the inaccessible parts, you get Bad Things. Don't touch those tables with those warnings. Find your stock file, and copy back in the stock values for anything you've messed with at Engine > Airflow > Electronic Throttle: Desired Throttle Area: Map A/B/C/D/Reduced Power Mode. When I see you mention the tip-in response has changed, and then see the 'DO NOT TOUCH' tables have been diddled, I have to wonder if you didn't create one of those Bad Things mentioned earlier.

    Do not set the Shift Timing tables shorter than .250s, and do not use any of the 'adder' tables,, zero them out. The trans cannot physically shift quicker than about .300 anyway, trying to make it go faster can do weird shit to the adaptives.

    Do not change the injector flow rate unless you have changed to a different injector. That's not a tuning aid, it's a set of characterizations the ECM uses in making other calculations all across everything. Trying to use it that way will leave you chasing other issues for the rest of your life, and right now what you do not need are more mysterious issues. If you have stock injectors, put the injector settings back to stock.
    Last edited by blindsquirrel; 1 Week Ago at 03:48 PM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00GrcyGtr View Post
    There is not enough knock to hear anything pinging,
    1. if you hear audible knock, it is likely outside the frequency range of the knock sensors.

    Knock sensors are tuned to inaudible knock only. They will hear and pull timing before your human ears even know anything.

    So the caveat is, by the time you hear the knock, its too late, the knock sensors are useless.

    2. You need to differentiate between KR and Burst knock. Make sure to log them separately.

    Burst knock during transitions is a TUNED feature. Not something that depends on knock sensors.

    KR as in knock retard from all other sources, IS mostly dependent on knock sensor feedback.

    In other words, you can remove the knock sensors from the engine, and still get burst knock feature to remove timing based on transitional input.
    It's a FEATURE of tuning, not a feedback/sensitization of knock sensing

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarabEpic22 View Post
    TBSS' don't brake launch well with the factory torque converter, period. You can disable a bunch of TM in the tune, there's a lot of questions to sift through in this thread so I'll have to look at it again tonight. I'll download and look through the TM settings in your tune then.

    If you want to really optimize your launch, you need to pull the ABS/StabiliTrak fuse (or put it on a switch) and put a 3000+ converter in. I've found on my full bolt on 08 TBSS (no converter yet), the fastest track times come from launching around 1200-1500rpms on the foot brake. Any higher and I've found it bogs off the line and is slower through the 1/4.
    If you'd have a look that would be great, just seems like I may have tweaked something, not realizing, as it is a touch more sluggish than the prior tune. Could be a half dozen things I know. I do know I was at one point able to stall it up to about 2000 with minor throttle (now only to 1800) and with the proper throttle input at launch it does pretty good for a stocker. I'm not ready to get to far into mods as of yet, but some rebuilding may be coming over the winter or in the spring.
    I do know I have read a dozen places to add an on/off switch for ABS as it lurks in the background no matter what you switch off either by button or tune. However, I can turn off my STBL a TRAK in the shifter switch. You saying this isn't really off then?

    Thanks man, appreciated.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    I didn't change anything with the burst knock in that sample. It's probably best if you figure that out yourself, as 'opinions differ' and all that, and you might like it best the way that someone else considers 'wrong'. Personally if the amount being pulled is as small as you say I wouldn't worry about it. If you do decide to change it, keep reading stuff that seems like nonsense for long enough and eventually one day you'll realize you understand what they are talking about. Once you understand how it works you can decide how to make it do what you want.

    If my sample reduced any burst knock, that's probably just because of the increased retard during shifts. AFAIK the ECM treats any load transition as a transient for the purposes of predicting burst knock, whether that comes from a trans shift or throttle change.

    What I meant by 'a lot to unpack' was, this started as a seemingly straightforward question about TM settings that might affect brake stall RPM, and now we're talking about burst knock, mufflers and MAF curves...

    Doing a compare between some of your files, you are making changes in some of the ETC tables that have EXPLICIT WARNINGS in the infotab at the bottom to NOT MESS WITH, because HPT cannot access the two tune segments where the true throttle controls live, and if you make certain changes to the accessible parts that don't play nice with the inaccessible parts, you get Bad Things. Don't touch those tables with those warnings. Find your stock file, and copy back in the stock values for anything you've messed with at Engine > Airflow > Electronic Throttle: Desired Throttle Area: Map A/B/C/D/Reduced Power Mode. When I see you mention the tip-in response has changed, and then see the 'DO NOT TOUCH' tables have been diddled, I have to wonder if you didn't create one of those Bad Things mentioned earlier.

    Do not set the Shift Timing tables shorter than .250s, and do not use any of the 'adder' tables,, zero them out. The trans cannot physically shift quicker than about .300 anyway, trying to make it go faster can do weird shit to the adaptives.

    Do not change the injector flow rate unless you have changed to a different injector. That's not a tuning aid, it's a set of characterizations the ECM uses in making other calculations all across everything. Trying to use it that way will leave you chasing other issues for the rest of your life, and right now what you do not need are more mysterious issues. If you have stock injectors, put the injector settings back to stock.
    No, your sample didn't do anything that I could see once compared, I asked BEFORE I compared (shame on me), I'll do better, as I do appreciate the help a lot!

    You are correct, I did a couple changes based on a Vette tune offered to me to review that only had CIA and Mufflers, but supposedly was "dyno tuned" and yes, the item "Max Torque Timing" was one I had changed, but I put it back stock before uploading this last tune, I'll check others again, but I obviously didn't read carefully enough on others that say "do not touch". I thought the "Max Timing Torque" was the only one that said that. Now I see more at the "ETC Desired". I think this came from a tune BBA did on a 2007 TBSS, but it wasn't that great compared to where I am, even With my more errors.

    The injector stuff again, was from the Vette tune, but if it isn't helping, I'm making sure it goes back to stock settings. The 32# units are still there so no mod at this point.
    As for "tip in items" I changed nothing that I remember, I use the term as more of a "feel thing" and note that I get .01 to .02 knock at that "tip of the throttle". Again, I don't know how much is too much, but the "Burst Knock" items I have read mentioned that many saw the KR I got for those short blips at shift could have been due to "Burst settings". I did make a couple minor adjustments in Burst Knock retard, the biggest being the "Delay, Hold time, Decay time Nd then minor ones in a few other places, again this was from another persons idea on how to help lose those blips at shifts.
    Those adjustments did help some, I am only getting a short 1 to 2? blip now where it was up to 6 to 8?. Any KR I could watch was always at shifts, up or down and lasted about 1000rpm, that I do recall quite well. I figured it might be due to the shift torque reduction retard having to come back up from a -spark value that was there with the torque drop for the shift, which you taught me the difference from increase shift pressures, shorten shift times (I'll set all at .25)
    The "Map A-Normal, only the column 9 was changed from 87 to 100 The reduced power mode was lowered by 1 in the 25% throttle and up (again, stuff from that Vette tune, but either way, if you say it's bad, it's going back to stock).

    I now see what you meant by "more to unpack", I guess I got really deep past the TCM stuff. I think it is because I post individual questions in several "what seems to be" proper threads, but never get any responses. Hell, I PM'd a couple guys on here and told them I'm willing to pay someone from here with some knowledge the $200 that PCM wants for their canned tune, mainly because I heard many from here and other forums/sources, that they felt their tunes were just MEH.....
    I've literally been reading daily, taking in all you share with me and trying to learn, especially from those like you who are more advanced than me. If you are up for being compensated for your time, especially now I know you will chew my ass for doing stupid stuff like "Edit DO NOT TOUCH ITEMS) just PM me, we'll work something out.

    It's like this, you and one other have shot straight with me, been professional and he didn't respond to my offer, so yur up if you wish.
    Thanks again, and I'll share more info once stuff is put back as needed, but it will be the weekend or next week sometime as the front DIFF is being swapped at the moment. AND, I believe this is #2 if the records are near correct. Thankfully I got the 5/50 warranty!

    Thanks again!
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    "To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature; but it is easier understood than explained...Speed is the second oldest animal craving in our nature..." -- T. E. Lawrence
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingtal0n View Post
    1. if you hear audible knock, it is likely outside the frequency range of the knock sensors.

    Knock sensors are tuned to inaudible knock only. They will hear and pull timing before your human ears even know anything.

    So the caveat is, by the time you hear the knock, its too late, the knock sensors are useless.

    2. You need to differentiate between KR and Burst knock. Make sure to log them separately.

    Burst knock during transitions is a TUNED feature. Not something that depends on knock sensors.

    KR as in knock retard from all other sources, IS mostly dependent on knock sensor feedback.

    In other words, you can remove the knock sensors from the engine, and still get burst knock feature to remove timing based on transitional input.
    It's a FEATURE of tuning, not a feedback/sensitization of knock sensing
    Thankfully I've never heard an actual knock on this or any of the other few I've tuned, the Series III S/C 3800 in my regal was the WORST for KR of anything I have ever seen.
    So you are telling me to add a channel for Burst Knock as well as KR then?
    I understand the need to differentiate the two, but I have read your last 3 sentences and am not quite understanding them.

    I'll read all the more I can find on KR and Burst KR, but this seems to be an item explained many different ways by others and I'll admit, I get really confused, but I'll log both as you said over the weekend and see what's up. Don't know what is is about this Knock stuff that's so confusing to me, I mean I know KR is basically to much fuel to fast so to say, which initially makes me think timing/spark. I did some adjusting there, but no difference in those KR blips I kept getting at shifts.
    Trust me, at this point, I "thought I had it really close", but according to comments from another member, since I messed with a few "DO NOT TOUCH" I may end up changing these back and then have to start over. At this time, would be my luck, but I've at least learned the bigger parts of the beginnings.

    Thanks again to you and all willing to help a guy out!
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    "To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature; but it is easier understood than explained...Speed is the second oldest animal craving in our nature..." -- T. E. Lawrence
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    I didn't change anything with the burst knock in that sample. It's probably best if you figure that out yourself, as 'opinions differ' and all that, and you might like it best the way that someone else considers 'wrong'. Personally if the amount being pulled is as small as you say I wouldn't worry about it. If you do decide to change it, keep reading stuff that seems like nonsense for long enough and eventually one day you'll realize you understand what they are talking about. Once you understand how it works you can decide how to make it do what you want.

    If my sample reduced any burst knock, that's probably just because of the increased retard during shifts. AFAIK the ECM treats any load transition as a transient for the purposes of predicting burst knock, whether that comes from a trans shift or throttle change.

    What I meant by 'a lot to unpack' was, this started as a seemingly straightforward question about TM settings that might affect brake stall RPM, and now we're talking about burst knock, mufflers and MAF curves...

    Doing a compare between some of your files, you are making changes in some of the ETC tables that have EXPLICIT WARNINGS in the infotab at the bottom to NOT MESS WITH, because HPT cannot access the two tune segments where the true throttle controls live, and if you make certain changes to the accessible parts that don't play nice with the inaccessible parts, you get Bad Things. Don't touch those tables with those warnings. Find your stock file, and copy back in the stock values for anything you've messed with at Engine > Airflow > Electronic Throttle: Desired Throttle Area: Map A/B/C/D/Reduced Power Mode. When I see you mention the tip-in response has changed, and then see the 'DO NOT TOUCH' tables have been diddled, I have to wonder if you didn't create one of those Bad Things mentioned earlier.

    Do not set the Shift Timing tables shorter than .250s, and do not use any of the 'adder' tables,, zero them out. The trans cannot physically shift quicker than about .300 anyway, trying to make it go faster can do weird shit to the adaptives.

    Do not change the injector flow rate unless you have changed to a different injector. That's not a tuning aid, it's a set of characterizations the ECM uses in making other calculations all across everything. Trying to use it that way will leave you chasing other issues for the rest of your life, and right now what you do not need are more mysterious issues. If you have stock injectors, put the injector settings back to stock.
    Everything is back you indicated should have never been adjusted except the BURST KNOCK RETARD settings I got from another, but I will be going back and checking that thread again, make sure I understood.
    You are correct, some just disable it all and some keep enough for "just in case", but then it was just explained to me, they don't rely on the sensors like the KR does.
    On this advice I was asked to log both Burst and my current KR. We'll see how this goes as soon as I get the big ol gal back on Friday (new Diff n all)

    Thanks again, hope you'll check on me again and don't forget my offer for your time!~!
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    "To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature; but it is easier understood than explained...Speed is the second oldest animal craving in our nature..." -- T. E. Lawrence
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    2007 Trailblazer SS

  7. #27
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    It's like this. In a GM ECM, there are 8 what GM calls 'calibrations' (and all of them combined together into the file that gets written is also called a 'calibration', which is confusing if you think about it too hard, but it's GM, so not really surprising). They are:
    Main Operating System
    System
    Fuel System
    Speedometer
    Engine Diagnostic
    Engine Operation
    Slave Operating System
    Engine

    HPT calls these 'segments'. In the HPT file there are only 6 segments:
    Main Operating System
    System
    Fuel System
    Speedometer
    Engine Diagnostic
    Engine Operation

    'Slave Operating System' and 'Engine' are inaccessible with HPT. Some liability thing apparently, I don't know. Anything involving lawyers is above my pay grade. So anyway, the ETC controls are in those two inaccessible segments. The throttle settings we DO have access to for read/edit/write have to remain compatible with the segments we CAN'T read/edit/write. The stock do-not-touch values in a Corvette file are compatible with the inaccessible Corvette ETC segments. The stock do-not-touch values in the TBSS file are compatible with the inaccessible TBSS ETC segments. The two inaccessible Corvette ETC segments are not the same as the two inaccessible TBSS segments, therefore copying over values from Corvette to TBSS for those fields with the infotab warnings on them is, from the point of view of the code that lives in the inaccessible segments, essentially the same as inputting random values. (this is also why you can't use HPT to change operating systems between platforms that have incompatible throttle controls, the left-behind segments are still the same as the previous OS/platform)

    -----

    Copying stuff from other platforms isn't inherently bad. Ferinstance my lowly 5.3L Envoy had spark tables that looked to be set up for 79-octane fuel, so I blindly copied in all the relevant stuff from an '06 6.0 TBSS (same E40). I get ZERO knock even though that change added something like 12 degrees in the on-throttle areas. I haven't gone any farther with it yet, though with no knock it could take even more. Thing to remember with spark though, best power is NOT the max advance it will tolerate without knock. Without a dyno and real data on what's happening I am calling this 'good enough' for now for all things spark-related. It picked up ~30ft/lb according to the scanner's TQ PID. Low hanging fruit.

    -----

    I am not a tuner, I've only ever diddled the tune on one vehicle, my own '06 Envoy, which is basically still mechanically stock. If I sound smart it's only because I was a GM tech for ~20 years, ending 10 years ago, which has nearly zero relevance to the things involved in real actual aftermarket tuning. I am still very much a noobie with this side of things.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    It's like this. In a GM ECM, there are 8 what GM calls 'calibrations' (and all of them combined together into the file that gets written is also called a 'calibration', which is confusing if you think about it too hard, but it's GM, so not really surprising). They are:
    Main Operating System
    System
    Fuel System
    Speedometer
    Engine Diagnostic
    Engine Operation
    Slave Operating System
    Engine

    HPT calls these 'segments'. In the HPT file there are only 6 segments:
    Main Operating System
    System
    Fuel System
    Speedometer
    Engine Diagnostic
    Engine Operation

    'Slave Operating System' and 'Engine' are inaccessible with HPT. Some liability thing apparently, I don't know. Anything involving lawyers is above my pay grade. So anyway, the ETC controls are in those two inaccessible segments. The throttle settings we DO have access to for read/edit/write have to remain compatible with the segments we CAN'T read/edit/write. The stock do-not-touch values in a Corvette file are compatible with the inaccessible Corvette ETC segments. The stock do-not-touch values in the TBSS file are compatible with the inaccessible TBSS ETC segments. The two inaccessible Corvette ETC segments are not the same as the two inaccessible TBSS segments, therefore copying over values from Corvette to TBSS for those fields with the infotab warnings on them is, from the point of view of the code that lives in the inaccessible segments, essentially the same as inputting random values. (this is also why you can't use HPT to change operating systems between platforms that have incompatible throttle controls, the left-behind segments are still the same as the previous OS/platform)

    -----

    Copying stuff from other platforms isn't inherently bad. Ferinstance my lowly 5.3L Envoy had spark tables that looked to be set up for 79-octane fuel, so I blindly copied in all the relevant stuff from an '06 6.0 TBSS (same E40). I get ZERO knock even though that change added something like 12 degrees in the on-throttle areas. I haven't gone any farther with it yet, though with no knock it could take even more. Thing to remember with spark though, best power is NOT the max advance it will tolerate without knock. Without a dyno and real data on what's happening I am calling this 'good enough' for now for all things spark-related. It picked up ~30ft/lb according to the scanner's TQ PID. Low hanging fruit.

    -----

    I am not a tuner, I've only ever diddled the tune on one vehicle, my own '06 Envoy, which is basically still mechanically stock. If I sound smart it's only because I was a GM tech for ~20 years, ending 10 years ago, which has nearly zero relevance to the things involved in real actual aftermarket tuning. I am still very much a noobie with this side of things.
    Well, You are obviously educated enough to know something about those legal things above our pay grades.
    The way you explained it NOW made a lot of sense (except Burst Knock) I'll figure it out, lots of reading, which is mostly how I got here. I remember reading the "beginning guide to tuning" almost 7 years ago, all the basics, but no real meat, you had to fend for yourself for the meat.
    BUT, the thing that made most sense is about copying tunes, or parts of that aren't the same part as your 6.0 engine, or your 4L70e trans. You made me realize that Vette likely doesn't have the same TCM OR ETC components as I remember it being tap shift.
    So, as soon as I pick big ol girl up later, I will write the tune I ended up with that has most all your suggested engine stuff and ONLY the tranny stuff you tweaked and give her a fly. AND even more so, since I KNOW I read a post about settings "Like ETC" or other control items from the tranny not being set well to work with the Engine, You are probably correct about me causing my own P0606 error, because it was just after I had copied items from the Vette tune.
    I looked at some of the repository stuff, one member called BBA had a TBSS tune that had a couple good points in it, but he (like myself) prior to your explanation of the "Torque reduction" feature and why, well he had his reversed. He added base pressure, he add ship point pressures and he almost "zero'd out" the Torque reduction.
    I will admit, his spark, MAF and a few other settings worked pretty well, except maybe his dwell changes. One or two members said modifying the dwell more than A really tiny bit on these stock coils isn't worth the gain for the amount of life you lose in the coil.

    I have an older brother who is of the belief that tuning ANY street car is silly and a waste of time, but even after I show him the stock tune at plus or minus 6 and the one you saw that was as close to plus or minus 2 I've gotten, he STILL says Factory tune is ALWAYS the best. Now me being a computer guy, I overclock, use like8 fans and my designs blip up on screen quickly, KNOWs it's garbage in, garbage out. The tune felt strong, it shifted like a bull bucking, made good power and torque, but was running SO lean it was scary. I know some guys use the term "lean is mean", you can make great power going a little lean, but I'll give up 20hp on my driver to NOT be cruising 65mph at 5% lean.

    Well, my next expenditure is going to be exhaust, I am piecing together from two to make one I like and that will be the same time the WB o2 goes in, so if this looks "good enough" for now, I'll keep it as is since I will likely be starting "almost" over once the WB is in place.

    Even though I know the Crank SAE TQ and HP numbers are not exact or truely correct, when you see, as you said a 30ft/lb increase, something is working.

    Thanks for that last info post, I now realize a bit more about most of the stuff, I'll find out more about the KR thing, I did install the colder NGK6 plug (like the cooler plugs used in my W Body S/C Regal) so if I'm getting "real KR" then I am most certainly off someplace.

    I may hit with a log n tune in the near future just for an opinion, especially if I can't find and kill any KR

    Have a great weekend!
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  9. #29
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    Make sure to check the gear ratios to see which trans it is for any files you use like that, if you try to apply what works on a built 80E to your stock 70E you will have a very bad day. A +$5000 70E might could deal with TM cut down to almost nothing, but... why? I just don't understand the obsession with 'firm shifts'. You know what feels even better than firm shifts? A transmission that isn't broken, that's what.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    Make sure to check the gear ratios to see which trans it is for any files you use like that, if you try to apply what works on a built 80E to your stock 70E you will have a very bad day. A +$5000 70E might could deal with TM cut down to almost nothing, but... why? I just don't understand the obsession with 'firm shifts'. You know what feels even better than firm shifts? A transmission that isn't broken, that's what.
    Oh, I know, I did catch it, thanks to you and explaining the importance of trans life. The he had his set all 0'd pout, I bet even a good low mileage 70 would have sounded like slipping clutch. I never ran that part of the TBSS tune. At this point, the trans is pretty much how you advised. Oh and all "so not touch" settings are OEM.
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  11. #31
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    leaner isn't meaner. idk who started that but they aren't talking about modern combustion engines.

    for naturally aspirated engines around 10:1 compression the general desired a/f ratio is 11.9 to 12.4:1 at WIDE OPEN THROTTLE

    For idle and cruising it doesn't matter whether we are talking 1000hp engine or 200hp engines, its always 14.6 to 14.8:1 from the factory and my preference is 15:1 "slightly lean cruise" saves maybe 1% fuel economy


    An engine will make more torque using 12:1 than 13 or 14:1 because there are more fuel molecules per unit volume near the peak pressure rotational angles of the crankshaft where torque is more effectively applied from the piston.

    In other words, more reactions with oxygen can occur per unit time when the density of fuel is higher than necessary, up until the point that additional fuel molecules 'get in the way' of the oxygen radical participation.

    its combustion chemistry

    ---

    As for burst knock, the name is what is most confusing. They shouldn't call it a 'knock' feature it has nothing to do with knock. They should have called it "transitional timing reduction" or "during fast throttle transitions, pull this much timing: " does that make more sense? it doesn't look at knock sensor feedback at all that I'm aware.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingtal0n View Post
    leaner isn't meaner. idk who started that but they aren't talking about modern combustion engines.

    for naturally aspirated engines around 10:1 compression the general desired a/f ratio is 11.9 to 12.4:1 at WIDE OPEN THROTTLE

    For idle and cruising it doesn't matter whether we are talking 1000hp engine or 200hp engines, its always 14.6 to 14.8:1 from the factory and my preference is 15:1 "slightly lean cruise" saves maybe 1% fuel economy


    An engine will make more torque using 12:1 than 13 or 14:1 because there are more fuel molecules per unit volume near the peak pressure rotational angles of the crankshaft where torque is more effectively applied from the piston.

    In other words, more reactions with oxygen can occur per unit time when the density of fuel is higher than necessary, up until the point that additional fuel molecules 'get in the way' of the oxygen radical participation.

    its combustion chemistry

    ---

    As for burst knock, the name is what is most confusing. They shouldn't call it a 'knock' feature it has nothing to do with knock. They should have called it "transitional timing reduction" or "during fast throttle transitions, pull this much timing: " does that make more sense? it doesn't look at knock sensor feedback at all that I'm aware.
    I saw the phrase on here, I have heard it many times, and I "think" it was quioned back in the sixties. It does hold true in some instances, but weather (all or any part of it) plays a huge factor.
    Certainly not 5% lean, but your -15.1 lean cruise I'd be curious to see your trims.
    I don't have a wideband yet, so I'm just getting as close as I can to a +1 t0 -1 at cruising. Thus far, I am there, I ran 40, then 50, then up to 55, they all bounced from 0 to -1 on the LTFT chart. Then I got to 60, 65 and 70. They all stayed at -1
    Logging KR and Burst KR, has been interesting. I still get a KR of .01 to .02 here and there, I do get higher numbers that I am trying to chase, The Burst and KR do overlap in various places, and I'll see a blip of KR for about 1000 rpm range at different RPM points, depending on the gear I'm in. In 1st as I ease into the throttle (best you can with a short gear) without just mashing the gas, I get little spots never over .05, then 2nd gear with full throttle I get a blip of up to 2.0 from about 4500 to about 5600 then it goes away.

    This very same tune however, later that day, and the next day was suddenly rich compared to the first 20 to 30 minutes of logging. I will gander to say weather is part of it, day 1 was right at 80? at about 50% and later was cooler as today low 70's (high 72?) at about 33%. So many factors in this stuff, makes a guy crazy even on a good day!

    So, if Mr. Squirrel will still have a look, especially since some of it was done on his suggestions (you are too welcome, I will intake good advice any day), I'll be posting tune with a couple logs showing weather difference. I will say it is more rich than I thought would run well, but I'm proven wrong again (thanks for the help, it feels great) The one area I fought most was Idle, it was REALLY rich, but I toned it down a touch.

    Let me know what you think if you care to input and short of running her lean, I too was looking for any balance between good HP/TQ and MPG I will say it hwy average WAY better than a month ago, but I had it ALL messed up (again, thanks to a knowledgeable member for helping correct my errors).

    Oh, one last thing, this again brings me to the question of how much KR is too much KR? I know 0 is best, but until I can WB tune it, I'll continue very minor tweaks as I have been in the areas it shows up, but to see less than 2 at anytime it's present is a nice change from a week ago. AND, I did return all BKR settings back to stock.
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    "To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature; but it is easier understood than explained...Speed is the second oldest animal craving in our nature..." -- T. E. Lawrence
    2000 Regal GSE
    2007 Trailblazer SS

  13. #33
    Tuner 00GrcyGtr's Avatar
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    As it is from your recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    Make sure to check the gear ratios to see which trans it is for any files you use like that, if you try to apply what works on a built 80E to your stock 70E you will have a very bad day. A +$5000 70E might could deal with TM cut down to almost nothing, but... why? I just don't understand the obsession with 'firm shifts'. You know what feels even better than firm shifts? A transmission that isn't broken, that's what.
    Ok, this is the tune I am currently on, I copied adjustments from yours, switched back ALL the "DO NOT MESS WITH" items and ran the tune. It was blinding rich, like -18..... LOL
    I made a tweak to this, then to that, got it reap close, then tweaked it by tiny increments between MAF and Spark and I have ended up with this.
    I still have a spot of KR (I logged burst aslo) in a couple places, depending on gear I'm in, but it's less than 2?, still only lasts about 1000rpm I was going to try the MAF first, if that seems to work I'll go that direction to get rid of it, if not, I'll play with spark in the areas, but I guess I am wondering also, while 0 is best, how bad is a 1000 rpm blip of say a max of 1.7?? I will add it no longer seems shift related, as it doesn't follow a shift like it used to.

    Given my comment, MAF then Spark? You have any suggestions before I mess it all up again? ..... LOL

    Current tune; 05-27-20 RESURRECT with blindsquirrel - 3.0 plus 1.1 MAF adjusted.hpt

    These logs are long, they were driving around doing errands, then a trip to Kokomo on the first day, it was warmer too, like 80 or 81 w/50% humidity.

    First day log; 20-05-30 13-21-14.hpl

    Second day log; 20-05-31 14-34-27.hpl

    The cruising speeds were similar to first day (warmer) log, but it was way more rich and my KR over 2? in some of the same "throttle on, easing in, climbing and shifting" but it lasted longer so that was why the question "where would you start" since it obviously needs to have less KR and a little less fuel in most areas "outside the 40 thru 65 to 70 cruising ranges" which all stay around 0 to -1.

    Love to here your thoughts!

    Thanks
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    "To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature; but it is easier understood than explained...Speed is the second oldest animal craving in our nature..." -- T. E. Lawrence
    2000 Regal GSE
    2007 Trailblazer SS

  14. #34
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    I'm using a stock '07 AWD file from the repository to compare with, it has the same OS & segments as your file so there shouldn't be any differences but I'm still seeing injector data and other stuff that's been changed.

    Min Inj Pulse, Offset vs Inj Tip Temp, & Boundary have been changed. Is the factory data incorrect for the factory injectors?

    Desired Throttle Area - Map A is still a tiny bit different in a few cells from my compare file.

    PE EQ ratio is seriously fucked. You have a value of 1.750 from 3,750 to 4,750. That's your stoich value at 0% alcohol of 14.68, divided by the PE of 1.75, which would give an AFR of 8.38:1. Try it with 1.190 flat across the whole thing (12.3:1).

    Make sure to disable COT & Catalyst Test while tuning, those both add fuel at unexpected times. Your collected error data will be all skewed if it happens to include fuel added by those two items.

    Are you changing the setup to put it in MAF-only while logging WB data for MAF tuning, and then changing it around to SD-only while logging for VE tuning?

  15. #35
    Tuner 00GrcyGtr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    I'm using a stock '07 AWD file from the repository to compare with, it has the same OS & segments as your file so there shouldn't be any differences but I'm still seeing injector data and other stuff that's been changed.

    Min Inj Pulse, Offset vs Inj Tip Temp, & Boundary have been changed. Is the factory data incorrect for the factory injectors?
    I either missed this or was left over from the Vette tune I mentioned (this was supposed to be a stock 6.0 w/dyno tune and only exhaust mods.) If it srews other shit up, I'll make sure and make it match my stock tune I pulled from my TBSS

    Desired Throttle Area - Map A is still a tiny bit different in a few cells from my compare file.
    This was a copy of my stock tune entirely, but yeah, I see on the compare, a couple areas are off by one or two. I'm sure I did a complete copy, but I will enter individually if required. I do know I did a copy paste on these though it seems the "Map A" still is off. Would any other part of tune change this by chance? Something I adjusted elsewhere? Only asking as again, I was sure I had put these all back.

    PE EQ ratio is seriously fucked. You have a value of 1.750 from 3,750 to 4,750. That's your stoich value at 0% alcohol of 14.68, divided by the PE of 1.75, which would give an AFR of 8.38:1. Try it with 1.190 flat across the whole thing (12.3:1).
    OMG! I did it again!, I did the same thing on shit timing, the decimal is wrong and I was trying for (1.175 there) my shift setting had the same problem. I ended up at 1.25 when you told me to do .25 (which I did get corrected) I'm just not paying attention or suffering dyslexia at times I'm sure. I was going for the 1.175 to end up at 12:5:1 thru that low to mid range, then the higher was where I saw some knock so I thought the 1.18 might help there (12:4:1), but I'll gladly try 1.19. My initial tune "again from other repository stuff on the 6.0" was 1.175 across the board, I did make a mistake, but the settings I was "trying for" were to see the affect it had on KR (I doubt the 1.75 my dumbass had was doing me any good.) I need to pay WAY better attention to my copy past and how I enter decimals.

    Make sure to disable COT & Catalyst Test while tuning, those both add fuel at unexpected times. Your collected error data will be all skewed if it happens to include fuel added by those two items.
    I was pretty sure COT was disabled, but per this comment and the one below, I mentioned a while ago this was "on the fly at the moment as I have not installed the Wideband yet, I was waiting for the dual exhaust install as I was going to use the hi flo catted down pipe and install it in the middle of the horizontal cross over section.

    Are you changing the setup to put it in MAF-only while logging WB data for MAF tuning, and then changing it around to SD-only while logging for VE tuning?
    So as I said, this is mostly on the fly as I did my Regal in the beginning, yes I know it will never be totally accurate without a WB installed so I was doing mostly MAF, PE, Spark and torque stuff (and other trans tweaks) at this time. Yeah, I know slap me up side the head, I'm impatient, but I know I can get close enough for now and then retune later this summer after exhaust is done and WB is in. I've not reallu done anything with VE, although O think I may have at one time did a (X1.01) because (I'm sure I had a decimal in the wrong point, but ti went REAL lean and another member 5DFP mentioned this) I did copy it all back to my original stock settings on this last tune for sure tho. I have printed your last couple instructions/samples and will be going back through anything I changed and double checking got all again now though, especially since you pointed out my PE table being really fuked up!
    I know it will all change and have the instruction videos saved to do the MAF then VE in proper order, I was just looking for bits n pieces I was able to get from the Regal in the beginning before any major mods.
    So should I be stoned for this or can I get it close w/o the WB for now? I am curious about how much it changed based on temps/weather and humidity though.
    Thanks again for your input, and those decimal places I'm sure have not done me any good. If I am an idiot, you can say it, I've been called worse.
    Last edited by 00GrcyGtr; 1 Day Ago at 08:50 AM.
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    "To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature; but it is easier understood than explained...Speed is the second oldest animal craving in our nature..." -- T. E. Lawrence
    2000 Regal GSE
    2007 Trailblazer SS

  16. #36
    Tuner 00GrcyGtr's Avatar
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    blindsquirrel

    Do have one last question, is the 12:3:1 better than the 12:4 or 12:5:1 I was trying for? This is getting a little confusing to me as I am trying hard to learn and use lambda. This may be part of my problem, but it seems easier to understand that if 14.5 is the ratio you are going for, than it should always equal 1.

    I do have a wide-band to be ordered, in my list for all exhaust stuff, it's just going to take a little longer as I am facing a pretty drastic ankle reconstruction. I was just trying for a little more tune here than my stock which was plus or minus 6 in the fuel trims on my stock tune and personally it felt "just okay", but performance has improved a great deal, I just went into areas I shouldn't have until the WB is installed.
    Last edited by 00GrcyGtr; 1 Day Ago at 08:58 AM.
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    "To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature; but it is easier understood than explained...Speed is the second oldest animal craving in our nature..." -- T. E. Lawrence
    2000 Regal GSE
    2007 Trailblazer SS

  17. #37
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    An EQ of '1' just means 'equal to whatever is defined in the Stoich AFR table.' More than 1 is richer than the Stoich AFR number, less than 1 is leaner. Inverse of Lambda.

    Whatever you 'target' in the PE will be wrong by however much the VE/MAF is wrong as the fuel trims go away in open loop. For now the best number to use for PE is whatever won't make it blow up.

  18. #38
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    [QUOTE=blindsquirrel;613435]An EQ of '1' just means 'equal to whatever is defined in the Stoich AFR table.' More than 1 is richer than the Stoich AFR number, less than 1 is leaner. Inverse of Lambda.

    Whatever you 'target' in the PE will be wrong by however much the VE/MAF is wrong as the fuel trims go away in open loop. For now the best number to use for PE is whatever won't make it blow up.[/QUOTE

    I'm learning the lamda and have been watching it and Commanded AFR, I will say that you catching that stupid mistake of me putting the decimal in the wrong place on my PE will certainly make a HUGE difference cause they were both STUPID low. (Lamda was at like .78) regardless of what trims were showing, that is pretty low for that I believe. The AFR was like 10.4, which is also really low. These are numbers when in the higher throttle positions and higher RPMS, which was I'm guessing what I'm seeing in open loop since trims mean nothing.
    I really DIDN'T realize I made that mistake. I may have caught up to it eventually, but I appreciate you pointing it out. I'll bet that being corrected will help and change many things that I'll end up chasing my tail on again, but WB is coming.
    So the tune now is most of what you suggested, PLUS what you corrected me on, and I got the spark and MAF from the other TBSS and Vette tune, however, I have adjusted both "lessened" (probably won't work as is) once it sees the new PE, but if I've gotten this close and my mistakes, I'll go back from where you started me and just add a little from stock until I see any KR
    I honestly should reload my stock file and log KR just to see where it was.
    Wideband is coming sooner, who cares if I have to install the sensor twice, it's only a bung hole (as Bart Simpson says) Never really liked the show, but some phrases were catchy.
    The Vette and TBSS were stock with tunes, but as you said, there a most certainly parts of the Vette to stay away from. All but the Trans on the TBSS tune felt good, but the spark was a little goofy. This was why I used the spark and adder from the Vette.
    It's all good, if it blows I have a warranty, I guess then comes the LSA and headers, but for now I'll get it back after they change my A/C and front Diff, and just ease it back to a little more than stock and leave it til the WB comes in.
    I'll end up starting over anyway then.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________

    "To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature; but it is easier understood than explained...Speed is the second oldest animal craving in our nature..." -- T. E. Lawrence
    2000 Regal GSE
    2007 Trailblazer SS