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Thread: Unsure of Torque Management settings

  1. #41
    Senior Tuner kingtal0n's Avatar
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    Back in the day before widebands were available to kids, I was playing with V8 supercharged (small blowers) and the way we did it back then was by plug reading mostly.


    I would take my 60's era V8 smallblock with 10psi of roots-blower boost using a 'blower carb' , run it hard then shut it down and check the plugs,

    adjust carb jets and repeat the cycle.

    It is possible but with the availability of widebands, plug reading has become more for checking ignition timing and engine health, rather than engine fuel related.

    Just mention all this because, it would be a good idea to research up on plug reading, distributor weight advance models, old tech to get your knowledge from how things used to be done, because thats sort of like a foundation for the more advanced topics.

  2. #42
    Tuner 00GrcyGtr's Avatar
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    Re thinking it all

    Quote Originally Posted by kingtal0n View Post
    Back in the day before widebands were available to kids, I was playing with V8 supercharged (small blowers) and the way we did it back then was by plug reading mostly.


    I would take my 60's era V8 smallblock with 10psi of roots-blower boost using a 'blower carb' , run it hard then shut it down and check the plugs,

    adjust carb jets and repeat the cycle.

    It is possible but with the availability of widebands, plug reading has become more for checking ignition timing and engine health, rather than engine fuel related.

    Just mention all this because, it would be a good idea to research up on plug reading, distributor weight advance models, old tech to get your knowledge from how things used to be done, because that's sort of like a foundation for the more advanced topics.
    It's quite funny you bring this up, I'm 59. I grew up in the car business with my Dad having a couple lots in Marion, IN back thru the mid 70's when the auto industry took a hit, but as it was, my entire family raced, even my mom (and my Grandma, but she was stop light to stop light as she always had a boat with a really big motor), but literally I remember what a pain it was pulling hot plugs to check them (which I can kinda remember color and readings, but it's been a while, since this anyway) Which in this photo is cutting the perfect 00 light.
    000reactiontime.JPG

    IMGP4843.jpgSo considering the electronics in this is all staging, lights, delay box, throttle stop etc.... This was mostly tuned the old fashioned way, however, we had the "weather tool" so right before each run, we knew all the air stats if a last minute adjustment or "dial in time in bracket" was needed. We mostly ran Super Gas 9.0 class and Super Pro class, but more of the pro tree events, in a 6.0 or 9.0 class. We sold this about 4 years ago, it was a single carb, 572 cu in putting out just over 1100hp and 1050lb/ft. Best 1/8 - 5:30's best 1/4 8:50's

    So the computer stuff to me isn't totally new, I mean I build my work PC's (I do Architectural and Engineering Design work) and have built and manage others. I'm no pro coder, but get by. The Auto stuff on the other hand is only greek in that sometimes I can't quite understand completely the effect from it's "item description", but I'm still reading and learning and YES, will be getting a Wideband soon as possible, however, I just know from starting on this HOT as H*LL, KR crazy 3800 that I was able to get 235 WHP with my tune before the dyno (I can't find the sheet and I'm FRUSTRATED)

    unnamed-II.jpg msg-21535-0-85646300-1500493852.jpg
    After the WB was installed (I didn't do it, and was just learning when this happened

    123_1.jpg
    Everyone says I shoulda hit the deer, but I didn't expect to miss the front lawn I was steering for.
    But anyway, we got it to 246WHP and I was still on the stock size S/C pulley, as it was just getting ready to go down for a winter refresh and more major mods.

    So, it's kinda like this, I would love to do a bottom end refresh (or short block) based on machine cost, and an LSA setup. I know I can go bigger and more HP and all, but I want a drive-able fun truck, kinda like now with a little more punch.

    I checked my AFR's and compared to your list/chart and in all but a few places I am really close, except the some load and more load areas, it seems my throttle is opening more quickly due to a setting and I can get down to the 13's and into 12's AFR than what it should be. Once I hit about 60 to 65% throttle as I'm climbing (slowly) I suddenly just drop from 14.7 to 12.5 (95kPa) at about 2500rpm Then at not quite full throttle (80-85%) still 95kPa it falls to 12.2AFR
    Of course it never shows less than 12.5 with almost and full WOT as you said, it isn't working in open loop.

    At cruising speed 60mph, 2030 rpm, 55kPa (34 to 35% throttle) all is good, but a throttle blip (not to floor) by me, to about 69 to 70%, up to about 63 to 64mph, 95kPa, 2100rpm, it immediately drops to 12.5 so it seems I don't have much seamless flow, it's seems all good or ALL IN.

    SO, I decided to start over, basics like I did my Regal, Spark, MAF and TQ mngmnt, use a comparison with what I had a few versions ago that wasn't so radical and see the differences, then some slight adjustments if I think worthy and I'm gonna log some driving. I am not so concerned with WOT like I'm racing except as and KR pops up, but I am looking to smooth transitions more, make sure I'm cruising like I was (numbers resembling your chart) and then I'm done until the WB install and I'm kinda hoping I can do the whole exhaust at the same time. The COVID thing pushed my business AR back and I don't want to tap my "fun funds" until the checks start rolling back in.

    And like @blindsquirrel said, I have ANYTHING that says don't or recommends NOT to change is all at the stock settings.

    Enjoy the day, I'm going for a ride. I may post a log n tune on this last effort before I "can do it totally properly" just to make sure I am not hitting DANGER ZONES.

    Thanks again to ALL you guys for help, comments, input and a swift kick in the A$$ as needed.
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    "To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature; but it is easier understood than explained...Speed is the second oldest animal craving in our nature..." -- T. E. Lawrence
    2000 Regal GSE
    2007 Trailblazer SS

  3. #43
    Senior Tuner kingtal0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00GrcyGtr View Post
    Of course it never shows less than 12.5 with almost and full WOT as you said, it isn't working in open loop.
    fuel open loop = wide open throttle in your example
    fuel open loop = no oxygen sensor feedback control, typical


    At cruising speed 60mph, 2030 rpm, 55kPa (34 to 35% throttle) all is good, but a throttle blip (not to floor) by me, to about 69 to 70%, up to about 63 to 64mph, 95kPa, 2100rpm, it immediately drops to 12.5 so it seems I don't have much seamless flow, it's seems all good or ALL IN.\
    HPtuners has something called power enrichment, which is quite different than many aftermarket stand-alone computers.
    That is likely the reason the a/f drops suddenly. It is entering PE mode.
    Now, advanced tuning topic would have you blend the VE table so that it merges seamless with the PE mode to generate the desired numbers i gave you.

    however, that is advanced topics. For beginners to computer, it is probably better to simply adjust the PE mode bracket to very specifically enrich during WOT or close to WOT by adjusting the trigger values.
    For example, say 75%+ throttle position and more than 77KPA to 'trigger' power enrichment. then pay close attention to the exact air fuel being commanded at every RPM in the table.
    Get very specific with it.

    Do some reading about power enrichment mode. And keep in mind, this 'mode' doesn't exist in the majority of aftermarket ECU. So, maybe take a look at the software for say "accel DFI" or "haltech" or "megasquirt" to see how they do things differently. This will give you insight to tuning your vehicles the way you think is easiest, rather than the way everybody else always does things.

  4. #44
    Tuner 00GrcyGtr's Avatar
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    A Tranny note

    Quote Originally Posted by ScarabEpic22 View Post
    TBSS' don't brake launch well with the factory torque converter, period. You can disable a bunch of TM in the tune, there's a lot of questions to sift through in this thread so I'll have to look at it again tonight. I'll download and look through the TM settings in your tune then.

    If you want to really optimize your launch, you need to pull the ABS/StabiliTrak fuse (or put it on a switch) and put a 3000+ converter in. I've found on my full bolt on 08 TBSS (no converter yet), the fastest track times come from launching around 1200-1500rpms on the foot brake. Any higher and I've found it bogs off the line and is slower through the 1/4.
    Not to just rehash old news, but I did find out a lot about launching it and do better, but I can tell you it is HORRIBLE from any roll start around 20-25mph. I've got enough info to make it launch better as is, just can't foot brake it past about 1400 to 1500 (one it will start to push through brakes, and 2, even if you let off and stomp it once it starts that push, it's a HUGE dog off the line. I've tuned well enough that w/o any TQ stuff turned off, I stayed right at the door of a nicely prepared GTR, he even came back and found me and told me my fat truck stayed with him as long or longer than ANYTHING he's raced and beat. Of course after like 50 feet it was like I jammed on the brakes as he pulled away VERY quickly.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________

    "To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature; but it is easier understood than explained...Speed is the second oldest animal craving in our nature..." -- T. E. Lawrence
    2000 Regal GSE
    2007 Trailblazer SS

  5. #45
    Tuner 00GrcyGtr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingtal0n View Post
    using a log, remove timing wherever you see KR.
    If the KR goes away, great.
    If it doesn't, use race fuel to verify it's not real knock, after which you will de-sensitize the knock table, or (preferably) figure out where the noise is coming from, probably a metal part such as exhaust rubbing on the frame or something. Look for contact points around the engine and transmission and check the trans/engine mounts for play. Those movements can cause false knock. Maybe try new knock sensors or cleaning the old ones. Stuff like that.

    Burst knock is wonderful feature that alot of people disable but I fucking love it. all it does it remove timing based on sudden throttle transitions as far as i can tell. I have mine set to just pull a degree or two if I suddenly step down on the throttle. Kinda what it was meant to do I think. It doesn't use the knock sensor and the activation is arbitrary with respect to the rest of the tune. the idea is, the computer lags slightly, so when you floor it and the pressure suddenly rises rapidly there are still a number of combustion events which occur during the transition before the map sensor can catch up with the new data. So its like a protective feature for a sudden transition which makes up for the lag of the electronics and lag of pressure transitions.

    Just an FYI, I played with timing A LOT checking the KR half dozen ways incl 116 octane race fuel, it's false, as I still would get erratic spots, amounts and even a spike every now and again, but no real consistency, except anything over 4000rpm. I fixed that, I did do a few adjustments in the KR area, the most being the attack rate adjustment, bit if I get a spot it's not more than a blip around 2? and normally at different intervals of a run.

    I like your idea of using, but limiting the BK settings, and I thought I had it, but now it never shows any. Maybe because I messed with KR settings?
    I would love to know how best to set the BK settings to allow something between 1 to 2? as I had it. Maybe I messed with it by mistake, but other than factory reset, can you help me with the BK settings to work like I mentioned? 1 to 2? max?
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________

    "To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature; but it is easier understood than explained...Speed is the second oldest animal craving in our nature..." -- T. E. Lawrence
    2000 Regal GSE
    2007 Trailblazer SS

  6. #46
    Senior Tuner kingtal0n's Avatar
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    I dont have the software on this computer so I dont know what tables to tell you to adjust.

    Its been a couple years but iirc I just played with the sensitivity settings until I liked how it kicked in the Burst Knock feature.
    The numbers themselves don't seem to make any sense to me

    The amount pulled is easily to adjust though, there should be a table asking how many degrees to pull exact

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00GrcyGtr View Post
    Just an FYI, I played with timing A LOT checking the KR half dozen ways incl 116 octane race fuel, it's false, as I still would get erratic spots, amounts and even a spike every now and again, but no real consistency, except anything over 4000rpm. I fixed that, I did do a few adjustments in the KR area, the most being the attack rate adjustment, bit if I get a spot it's not more than a blip around 2? and normally at different intervals of a run.

    I like your idea of using, but limiting the BK settings, and I thought I had it, but now it never shows any. Maybe because I messed with KR settings?
    I would love to know how best to set the BK settings to allow something between 1 to 2? as I had it. Maybe I messed with it by mistake, but other than factory reset, can you help me with the BK settings to work like I mentioned? 1 to 2? max?

    There are Burst Knock vs cylair delta, vs rpm, and on some, vs IAT. You can limit it there. Burst knock is separate from KR settings, as it just occurs when the parameters are hit, not due to knock sensor activity.

    I dont know what you are working on, but on my Gen4 with a PD blower, I limited burst knock until I am into the higher IAT values, and higher delta changes (harder pedal stomps), and then the amount is still cut down from the stock values.