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Thread: Spark Reduction map

  1. #1

    Spark Reduction map

    Tuning a 2017 GMC 6.2L v8 with whipple and 160 Thermostat.

    New to HP tuners made the switch from EFILive. Need help building the map that shows spark reduction due to knock for spark tuning.

    Will have base Whipple tune in the next couple of days.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Tuning Addict 5FDP's Avatar
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    In the scanner you can log knock retard, spark timing and cylinder airmass.

    Then just create the graph/chart or whatever to match the layout in the editor. This way you can track it with ease.
    2016 Silverado CCSB 5.3/6L80e, not as slow but still heavy.

    If you don't post your tune and logs when you have questions you aren't helping yourself.

  3. #3
    Looks like I've got the chart I need configured. But the units of the spark tables are in Grams instead of KPA... How do I change the units for the tables. EFI live has a section for that but i cant seem to find it in hp tuners.

    Thanks for the fast response and assistance.

    I can put together some images and steps incase someone else needs the same thing.

  4. #4
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    Right click on the in the VCM scanner under the Graph tab>Graphs layout>Drop down beside unit.


    But I thought it should be in grams according to my 2014 L86?

  5. #5
    So I created a new table based on what I wanted. I dont see the units based on the PID I have selected... Am I looking at the wrong PID?

    ThanksHPT Example.png

  6. #6
    Tuning Addict 5FDP's Avatar
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    Spark airmass is not the same as the MAP.

    You need to log cylinder airmass and then use cylinder airmass on the setup.
    2016 Silverado CCSB 5.3/6L80e, not as slow but still heavy.

    If you don't post your tune and logs when you have questions you aren't helping yourself.

  7. #7
    Senior Tuner eficalibrator's Avatar
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    1) Spark is not tied directly to kPa, so what you are attempting to log isn't that helpful.
    2) A 160* thermostat will not help your fuel evaporation and mixing, which are more important on a DI engine than you think. I would strongly recommend a stock thermostat.
    3) What do you think is "wrong" with the Whipple calibration? I hear they worked with some OEM guy to develop it, it ran well, made power, and passed emissions.

  8. #8
    2020-06-02 23_10_27-Graph Display Layout Editor.png
    2020-06-02 23_08_40-Parameter Selector.png

    Did I select that correctly? Forgive my ignorance as I find my way around.

    Whipple works with Ford on there OEM stuff but Not GM that I know of.

    I was anticipating running more timing. Our Whipple rep said they just run better with a lower temp thermostat.

    Whipple is no longer able to make any modifications to the tune once it passes emissions testing and they dont tune at all for header and want there supercharger to be the only change made. See the HP tuners steps linked here. https://whipplesuperchargers.com/ind...achment_id=122

    This truck has long tube headers and green catz. Will require some modifications for those as well as when we can get one we plan to run a 112mm TB. I also will need to Calc the MAF corrections for upping the pipe size along the way. Which I'm not sure how to do with HP tuners.

    I personally and in my customer vehicles have most always run a 160 T stat. never had any ill effects and can get some more timing. Longevity wise you do have a bit more wear but can generally get more performance with a lower stat. Being new to DI You could be entirely right here. So I may hold off on adding that for a bit.

    Some heavy research I did years ago on cylinder wall wear and bearings indicate running at 175 deg was the happy medium between performance gains and longevity. Ive always been able to run a little more timing with a lower stat.

    What im trying to accomplish here is get a table together to do Spark tuning and watch for spark knock so i can back off a couple of degrees after hitting knock. Is there a new way? This is my first real dive into Gen V.
    Last edited by HellKnightHicks; 06-02-2020 at 10:26 PM.

  9. #9
    Tuning Addict 5FDP's Avatar
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    Yes, you have it right in the pictures. If you wanted a table to match what it goes in the editor, you have the two correct channels picked.

    What Greg was hinting at was that he was likely the guy that worked for the OEM and helped them with their calibration.

    I never saw the benefit of a colder thermostat, running 190-200 degrees is just fine. Getting more timing because the coolant temp was 10-15 degrees cooler doesn't make any sense to me.


    Ideally you would use a dyno to see where additional timing is worth it, adding timing until it knocks isn't exactly the right way to go about things. Like what if it stopped making power at 22 degrees of timing but someone went all the way to 25 degrees, that 3 degrees isn't helping anything and could put you that much closer to the edge of knock.
    2016 Silverado CCSB 5.3/6L80e, not as slow but still heavy.

    If you don't post your tune and logs when you have questions you aren't helping yourself.

  10. #10
    Ok ill stick with the stock thermostat it is. Thanks for the input Greg.

    Did not know that about spark tuning. Dont have access to a Dyno. Your comments are very logical.

    Where is a good thread to setup a table for Calcing the MAF?

    The fuel trims were within -4~4 STFT LTFTs with the stock tune maps. Minimal changes everywhere else.

    Thanks fellas.

  11. #11
    Just finished Porting and polishing the lower intake for the whipple. Should have the super charger mounted by tomorrow night. Then its time for the inner cooler.

    Thanks for the tips.

  12. #12
    Senior Tuner eficalibrator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HellKnightHicks View Post
    This truck has long tube headers and green catz. Will require some modifications for those as well as when we can get one we plan to run a 112mm TB. I also will need to Calc the MAF corrections for upping the pipe size along the way. Which I'm not sure how to do with HP tuners.
    I would hold off on the 112TB until the very end of the project. Get everything else right with a known good TB before you mess that up. A lot of larger or "ported" throttle bodies ruin the flow area vs blade angle relationship that was carefully sculpted by GM. Many of them end up opening more flow area just off idle when the factory TB is more progressive and the torque model has fits trying to control it. If you use the ZR1 or Katech throttle body, it at least is a direct scaled up version of your original unit, allowing us to fix the size change with a single cal value. I have used these successfully on several projects.

    Correcting the MAF curve for a larger pipe is actually really simple. It's the same for a GENV as it was in GENIII. Check out my training videos below if you want to see how I do it with a wideband and measured lambda error instead of relying on questionable narrowband O2 sensors.

    "Green Cats", while a step in the right direction, are nowhere near as effective as the OEM bricks and don't last as long.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5FDP View Post
    What Greg was hinting at was that he was likely the guy that worked for the OEM and helped them with their calibration.
    It's not that I was on the OEM side for this one, I was actually working directly with Whipple as an aftermarket only CARB legal project.

  13. #13
    How do I change the x axis scaling on ECM 18060 (desired ECTs) the tune I have is setup for a 160 T stat. I changed the mechanical T stat value (8056) but that doesnt seem to effect scaling in 18060's X Axis.

    Notice the X Axis Values
    2020-06-10 10_50_47-VCM Editor -... Tunes_2017 Denali 6.2L_My Tunes_Whipple ECU Stock TCU Tstat .png2020-06-10 10_50_15-VCM Editor -... Tunes_2017 Denali 6.2L_My Tunes_Whipple ECU Stock TCU Tstat .pngWhipple ECU Stock TCU Tstat Mod.hpt
    First one is the whipple 160 tune. the second one is the stock config in compairison. I have saved and re-opened after changing 8056 to no effect.
    Last edited by HellKnightHicks; 06-10-2020 at 10:17 AM.

  14. #14
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    @ HellKnightHicks - How did you adjust your timing based on your cylinder airmass? My spark knock is only reading at the .04 grams of cylinder airmass and that is the only row that is picking up anything..... Did you have a similar experience?

  15. #15
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    Here is my log file Annotation 2020-06-10 112507.png

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by MartyB2017SS View Post
    @ HellKnightHicks - How did you adjust your timing based on your cylinder airmass? My spark knock is only reading at the .04 grams of cylinder airmass and that is the only row that is picking up anything..... Did you have a similar experience?
    I havent started the truck with the whipple at this point. I will log some once I get going and let you know.

  17. #17
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    Yea the guy I had dyno tune my car initially set the timing way up..... I am not to happy with the results. I will get it adjusted properly soon.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by eficalibrator View Post
    1) Spark is not tied directly to kPa, so what you are attempting to log isn't that helpful.
    2) A 160* thermostat will not help your fuel evaporation and mixing, which are more important on a DI engine than you think. I would strongly recommend a stock thermostat.
    3) What do you think is "wrong" with the Whipple calibration? I hear they worked with some OEM guy to develop it, it ran well, made power, and passed emissions.
    1.) The commanded TQ table is extremely conservative. I never understood why if you push the pedal to 100% the amount of TQ commanded drops as speed goes up. I had thought that would be fixed.
    2.) Spark GM usually has a lot of gains to be made down low and they generally run very conservatively. There's a lot of timing pulled. Which I understand but there are no additions any any of the areas that the stock tune could benefit.
    3.) I like my vehicles to be aggressive and sporty. I don't feel that the base Whipple tune does that very well. You would never know it even had a super charger until you hit about 50% throttle or more.
    4.)I feel like even at 100% throttle the supercharger is not doing enough. For the money spent and the boastful claims of tire frying.... It doesn't do that. At least on in my setup at this time. That could be because there is no transmission tune at this time. its just running stock.

    I plan to change the bypass valve to boost reference instead of Vaccume reference.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyB2017SS View Post
    Yea the guy I had dyno tune my car initially set the timing way up..... I am not to happy with the results. I will get it adjusted properly soon.
    I'm just getting started with HP tuners and Gen IV Direct Injection.

    With the LS1B controllers I would log spark and Knock if your seeing knock you need to back down a couple of degrees. Its just a way to Spark tune without a Dyno.
    We would generally set the Low Octane to match the high Octane table. Then log spark knock work an area at a time until you hit everything you generally operate at. Like mentioned above its not the most accurate way of doing it but you can get a lot of gains without a dyno. Or in your case fix your high spark spots.

    If your mapping it like the table just lower the spark a few degrees on the cells that are reporting knock. Not saying its exact as Greg mentioned but it may be something to try.
    Last edited by HellKnightHicks; 06-14-2020 at 12:13 AM.

  19. #19
    My LTFTs are a little on the fat side -7 i saw in some spots. Suppose I need to calc the VE. Dunno how to do that on a Gen V with the polynomial VE tables.
    Guess its tuning vids for me unless theres a document running around.

    150KPA.hpl

  20. #20
    Senior Tuner eficalibrator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HellKnightHicks View Post
    1.) The commanded TQ table is extremely conservative. I never understood why if you push the pedal to 100% the amount of TQ commanded drops as speed goes up. I had thought that would be fixed.
    That's axle torque. If you shift from 1st to 2nd gear, you lose torque multiplication ratio in the trans. They have sculpted the table so the driver doesn't normally feel a huge step as it changes each gear unless you are WOP.
    2.) Spark GM usually has a lot of gains to be made down low and they generally run very conservatively. There's a lot of timing pulled. Which I understand but there are no additions any any of the areas that the stock tune could benefit.
    GM is usually at either the knock limit or MBT. It's not 1992 anymore, they know how much timing is ideal at each condition. If adding the supercharger is transparent in that region, there is no reason to reinvent the wheel with spark timing.
    3.) I like my vehicles to be aggressive and sporty. I don't feel that the base Whipple tune does that very well. You would never know it even had a super charger until you hit about 50% throttle or more.
    Um, thank you? That was actually the goal. We didn't want to make the vehicle difficult to drive in traffic or parallel park when all you have to do to get full power is move your foot a fraction of an inch. You have the option to modify the driver request table if you want to make it more rowdy. Be aware that you will trade "sportiness" for street manners and potentially safety. The delivered calibration struck what Whipple believed to be a good balance, similar to what I have done on several other DBW programs.
    4.)I feel like even at 100% throttle the supercharger is not doing enough. For the money spent and the boastful claims of tire frying.... It doesn't do that. At least on in my setup at this time. That could be because there is no transmission tune at this time. its just running stock.
    If the throttle is opening 100% at 100% pedal input, that's all she's got. Final vehicle results can vary drastically depending on axle ratio, wheel/tire size, or vehicle weight. I had a program a while ago where we had a supercharged GenV truck that drove awesome and then they put a set of BroDozer wheels and tires on it. It lost 80rwhp on the dyno and didn't really feel supercharged anymore from the driver's seat. That's just how much impact the rest of the vehicle can have, even though the engine is making boost/power. That said, holding a transmission gear 10-20% higher at part throttle makes a world of difference on what the driver feels too.