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Thread: C7 Stingray with ECS Supercharger pulls all the timing

  1. #1

    C7 Stingray with ECS Supercharger pulls all the timing

    I had a customer bring me a 2014 Stingray with an East Coast Supercharger Kit. The car had a bunch of driving issues and was breaking up underload. I take care of some issues and get it on the dyno. First pull it made 536 rwhp on 8psi with zero timing coming out anywhere, so I add a couple of degrees. Power went up to 578 rwhp still with zero timing removed any place. Its a Gen V, all they do is pull timing for everything, so I look deeper in the tune and find that ECS removed all the knock retard in the computer, knock retard amount is zero across the board. I turn it back on, installing stock numbers and bingo I have all the knock. I have 16 degrees at my limit and by 2800rpms it goes from zero to all 16 degrees, power drops to 398 rwhp. I want knock protection on, I see know reason to ever touch it, unless its just to cover up a horrible tune. Now my problem, no mater what I do it pulls all 16 degrees, this happens right at 2800, this also just happens to be the same rpm that the stock map sensor limit is reached. I tried everything, timing, fuel, torque tables, no matter what its always all the knock. If I zero out the knock amount table, i get full timing and a couple hundred more hp. I have also logged knock sensor voltage per cylinder and it will show the cylinders are not knocking, must be torque management. But i cant make it go away no matter what I do with torque. I dont understand why knock amount is linked to torque management, also no torque management timing is being removed. I even installed the tune from the last 2014 C7 procharged system I did. On that car it made 624 rwhp on 8 psi with zero to 1.5 degrees knock retard on the entire run. On this car is pulled 16 degrees at 2800 and feel on its ass.

    Bad383TA

  2. #2
    Senior Tuner SultanHassanMasTuning's Avatar
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    post the tune, i have done several of them
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  3. #3
    Sorry about that, I pulled the Vette from the dyno for a few days so I could catch up on a few other tunes. i have it back on the dyno to play with today and I believe this is the last tune in the car.

    Bad383TA
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  4. #4
    Senior Tuner SultanHassanMasTuning's Avatar
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    log of this last tune
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  5. #5
    This pull was done about five minutes ago.

    bad383ta
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  6. #6
    Senior Tuner SultanHassanMasTuning's Avatar
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    please log inj pw and fuel pump pressure and rail

    there is o2mv logging

    all fuel related needed
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  7. #7
    I have logged everything including all of those values. This is another data log with fuel.

    Bad383TA
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  8. #8
    Senior Tuner SultanHassanMasTuning's Avatar
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    LPFP is dropping pressure and your fueling is lean
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by SultanHassanMasTuning View Post
    LPFP is dropping pressure and your fueling is lean

    The LPFP dosent drop any more then any other low boost C7, My problem always starts at 2800-3000 rpms and at that RPM range my LPFP is keeping up perfectly fine for another 1000 rpms. I have meth injection for the top end, currently tuning without. Even with meth spraying it does the same thing. On the datalog in question the car was at a 12.9 according too both widebands that I have installed. This was at 2800-3000 rpms when the knock retard starts and only 2.3 pounds of boost. I have had the car anywhere from 11.5-13.5 afr depending on run in increments of .2 AFR. No AFR change made any notable change in knock. No run ever shows any torque management advance, just knock retard and ECS had everything zeroed out in the knock retard table. As soon as I input knock retard degrees in the table, the ecm pulls all timing up to the max limit of 16 degrees, Zero the table out and i pickup 200 rwhp, but then we have zero knock retard protection.

    Bade383TA

  10. #10
    Senior Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    So the KR is false and this isn't a new issue... you have to tune the sensors on the dyno. Pretty much all 58x stuff needs this back to the beginning.
    Steve Williams
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  11. #11
    Senior Tuner SultanHassanMasTuning's Avatar
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    yes they are known to be sensitive

    you sometimes gotta tune your car old school, read your plugs
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  12. #12
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    Curious...Anyone know why the log is showing the Max Torque always in negative numbers, e.g. -590?

    Thanks,
    Pj

  13. #13
    I fully understand tuning the knock sensors, I just don't believe in it. I have been tuning as a business for 20 years and another five years before that. Occasionally there is no way around it, but I like to give the engine all the safety originally designed into it. I have never had a gen5 pull this much timing ever. I have my limit set at 16 degrees and it pulls all of it without hesitation. Hell, I have a 2015 Z06 at the shop now making 1136 at the tires with a Procharger, pulls a degree here or there, nothing more without ever touching the knock sensor settings. It's just scary as all hell to even thing about playing with the sensors when it pulls so much. I spent the last few days going through every centrifugal supercharger genV car I have ever tuned and there is about 230 of them. I have never seen an issue like this in the past. However I am a big Procharger guy so most of them have been Procharged, a good amount of A&A kits tossed in and some Whipple or Maggies for fun. Possibly it could be something with the ECS bracket and its mounting, blower and a specific vibration caused by this setup. Obviously ECS has issues with this setup and decided to take the easy way out and just zero out the retard tables. Yes it works, but at the cost of zero safety. We all know the rely deeply on 100% meth injection on any car they build, it works until it doesn't work and then with this setup and real knock the pistons are hanging out of the block. The max Torque has been working and moves all around but when going into boost has always been stopping at 140. This is regardless if i use all stock values or raise or lower the virtual torque tables. The last log I posted above read -590 the entire time, I think this was because I had so many pids in the log.

  14. #14
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    Any dtcs on the car?

  15. #15
    Senior Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad383ta View Post
    I fully understand tuning the knock sensors, I just don't believe in it. ....
    Believe in it or not, you need to be doing this work. It's very easy to tell what is real knock and not when you have it on the dyno, and to get the car to agree to that. If you can't make sense of the visual exhaust statements, a 5-gas will show you NOX levels and reveal how close real knock is. After enough time, you don't need this as you will have the visual cues. It's not like this is some "hack approach" any more than tuning a VE on the dyno is.
    Steve Williams
    TunedbyFrost.com


  16. #16
    Senior Tuner Ben Charles's Avatar
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    I always mod the knock sensors.. if you don’t you’ll never be able to reach MBT

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