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Thread: Throttle adaptation info

  1. #1
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    Throttle adaptation info

    Can anyone explain the "throttle adaptation" parameter? Like what causes adaption and how it effects other parameters. Just trying to understand pro's and con's of being enabled/disabled. Any help is greatly appreciated.

  2. #2
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    Leave it enabled.....it learns so as to try and meet throttle targets in tune
    Last edited by Hemituna; 07-09-2020 at 05:51 PM.

  3. #3
    Advanced Tuner f.creek-ranch's Avatar
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    I disabled it, because Ive tried to hold the pcm back from open loop....but dont know exactly at this time if it helps...

  4. #4
    I have a 2009 M6 Challenger with a 426 stroker 270 cam. Turning this setting off is the only way that my car will not rev hang between gears. With this setting on when I reset the adaptives the car runs fine. After a few miles it starts to rev hang between first and second when taking off from a complete stop. 3rd and 4th are ok. Then the problem gets so bad after 50 or so more miles that the car will rev to 4 to 5 k when the clutch is pushed in at highway speeds. Disconnect the battery and all is well for a while and the cycle repeats.
    Last edited by Party340; 07-09-2020 at 06:39 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Party340 View Post
    I have a 2009 M6 Challenger with a 426 stroker 270 cam. Turning this setting off is the only way that my car will not rev hang between gears. With this setting on when I reset the adaptives the car runs fine. After a few miles it starts to rev hang in first and second when taking off from a complete stop. Then the problem gets so bad after 50 or so more miles that the car will rev to 4 to 5 k when the clutch is pushed in at highway speeds. Disconnect the battery and all is well for a while and the cycle repeats.
    Sounds like your throttle is not characterized properly.

  6. #6
    How do you do that? This never was a problem before I put in this stroker.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Party340 View Post
    How do you do that? This never was a problem before I put in this stroker.
    Post the file and log.

  8. #8
    advanced cam 117 tuned idle air flow increased on small and large tables cooling fan temp on.hpt19.hpl


    Thanks for taking a look. Even though it looks like a tune file only the log is at the end.

  9. #9
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    Have you tried raising the airflow number in the target area that you have this issue? In my experience anytime i make a change to something that have adaptives i drive the car for a day or so for them them to settle before making another adjustment. Sounds like the airlow number need adjustment, just remember the bigger the number the LESS the TB opens and the SMALLER the number the MORE it opens.
    6.4 Whipple Diamond pistons Manley rods, Demon Plus Cam

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Party340 View Post
    advanced cam 117 tuned idle air flow increased on small and large tables cooling fan temp on.hpt19.hpl


    Thanks for taking a look. Even though it looks like a tune file only the log is at the end.
    Hard to say based on that data alone. Need to log calculated MAP, throttle flow, idle torque, throttle adaptives, torque adaptives, phi adaptives...anything airflow related that you can find. I might also look into changing the displacement to the correct value so you at least have a good starting point. Any info on camshaft, throttle body, etc would also be useful.

  11. #11
    Comp 270 115 lsa 111 icl and stock 80 mm tb If I change the displacement the cruse will not work and it will not pass emissions but I will try it just to see. FstDodgeKY I have tried increasing the flow numbers in the idle ranges and it dies out more often but then after a few miles it starts acting up again. If I turn off the throttle adaptive it runs fine.

  12. #12
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    You gotta let the data drive your changes man lol. Get another log with those variables I mentioned and post up.

    Also, I explained some of the throttle adaptive stuff on another post:

    Quote Originally Posted by smokeshow View Post
    Lol, so it goes like this. Say you have a hole in a thin metal plate and you want to move air through the hole. You have to either build up pressure on one side or reduce pressure on the other side. You can calculate the mass flow rate through the hole if you know the effective area of the hole (absolute area * coefficient of discharge), velocity of the flow, and the density of the air on the high pressure side. Now, concerning the throttle body...due to physics, we know the velocity is equal to the speed of sound when the pressure ratio is below 0.528. We know the density of the air upstream of the throttle because of the modeled baro pressure and intake air temperature. And finally, we know the effective area of the throttle (as a function of flow) due to the bench calibration that the throttle goes through. Now the rules of compressible flow tend to fall apart a bit when the pressure ratio goes above 0.528. That's what the phi correction is for. Below that pressure ratio, the airflow becomes subsonic. So the phi ratio is a multiplier on that bench throttle flow calibration for pressure ratios above 0.528 to continue giving us a usable model of compressible flow through the throttle to continue estimating throttle mass flow.

    Now, phi is a variable itself and is updated based on models and measurements. Since we are measuring MAP and also have a running estimate of manifold pressure in the form of CALC_MAP, we can calculate an inferred flow discrepancy in the form of a set of throttle flow adaptives. Those adaptives are comprised of an adder, a multiplier, a proportional and an integral component. The phi variable is calculated with the throttle flow adaptive integral - phi is then used to calculate a new compressible flow factor to generate a corrected throttle mass flow when the air moving through it is subsonic, or P_Ratio > 0.528. Finally, the throttle adaptives all together are used to correct the values that come from the throttle body model.

    It's a nasty algorithm, isn't it? I won't go into any more detail now, but tl;dr...air goes through the throttle, we model both that flow and the manifold pressure; model the baro at low TPS, estimate/calculate baro at high TPS; compare the modeled MAP to measured MAP, calculate phi and throttle adaptives to correct for subsonic throttle flow and any offsets the throttle might have (manufacturing tolerances, throttle coking, etc). There's a lot more to this crazy algorithm but I'll stop there

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokeshow View Post
    Hard to say based on that data alone. Need to log calculated MAP, throttle flow, idle torque, throttle adaptives, torque adaptives, phi adaptives...anything airflow related that you can find. I might also look into changing the displacement to the correct value so you at least have a good starting point. Any info on camshaft, throttle body, etc would also be useful.
    Unfortunately some (most) of those channels are probably not available for him.
    If in doubt, multiply everything by 1.1.

  14. #14
    Quick question. When I turn off the throttle adaptive am I shutting of the algorithm that involves phi? Or is there a second algorithm involved? I also want to point out that this car is a PITA to tune because you have to disable the VVT to get full control of tuning parameters. I have it enabled so I've lost a lot of functionally (VE tables don't work, PE tables don't work, changing PT timing throws WOT timing out of wack) The AFR is close enough (11.9- 13.2 throughout the rev range) but not ideal because the computer uses the stock hidden 5.7 VE tables so I had to log injector pulse and skew the injectors.
    Last edited by Party340; 07-10-2020 at 03:29 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Party340 View Post
    Quick question. When I turn off the throttle adaptive am I shutting of the algorithm that involves phi? Or is there a second algorithm involved? I also want to point out that this car is a PITA to tune because you have to disable the VVT to get full control of tuning parameters. I have it enabled so I've lost a lot of functionally (VE tables don't work, PE tables don't work, changing PT timing throws WOT timing out of wack) The AFR is close enough (11.9- 13.2 throughout the rev range) but not ideal because the computer uses the stock hidden 5.7 VE tables so I had to log injector pulse and skew the injectors.
    It doesn't prevent it from being used to correct the compressible flow factor, but it does prevent it from updating that value in case there is an error. You're just stuck with the original calibration values for phi vs pratio.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Party340 View Post
    Quick question. When I turn off the throttle adaptive am I shutting of the algorithm that involves phi? Or is there a second algorithm involved? I also want to point out that this car is a PITA to tune because you have to disable the VVT to get full control of tuning parameters. I have it enabled so I've lost a lot of functionally (VE tables don't work, PE tables don't work, changing PT timing throws WOT timing out of wack) The AFR is close enough (11.9- 13.2 throughout the rev range) but not ideal because the computer uses the stock hidden 5.7 VE tables so I had to log injector pulse and skew the injectors.
    It’s not a hidden ve table , it’s the Artificial neural networks controlling fueling based on ijnjector pluse width tables . You can disable it from the airflow tab and you will regain full control over the ve

  17. #17
    Hello malikib. Check out the tune that I posted above. It is disabled I think. I also enabled throttle adaptives and logged for phi adapt. So far all zero's. but once it starts acting up maybe that will change.

  18. #18
    Advanced Tuner f.creek-ranch's Avatar
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    Ther are many parameters, I cant log. inj pulse for example....so I dont know exactly where to start with some things.
    After disable throttle adapt, the engine is extreme responsible and sounds great. No open loop when logging, no throttle hang.
    I leave it disabled and go further in logging, first in closed, later open loop.
    Car sounds incredible.....

  19. #19
    26 runaway idle.hplnew reworked tune 3 enabled adaptive electric throttle 750 idle 20 percent knock sensor densitiz.hpt


    Hello Smokeshow. I've attached the current tune and log with phi and more airflow parameters. At the beginning of the log everything is normal. At the end is when it starts to act up.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Party340 View Post
    26 runaway idle.hplnew reworked tune 3 enabled adaptive electric throttle 750 idle 20 percent knock sensor densitiz.hpt


    Hello Smokeshow. I've attached the current tune and log with phi and more airflow parameters. At the beginning of the log everything is normal. At the end is when it starts to act up.
    So I'll be honest with you, working to fix one problem that is a symptom of a combination of a lot of calibration issues isn't going to yield the best results. Right away, your displacement is wrong. Wrong displacement will yield an incorrect torque estimate which will cause idle torque correction to be wrong. That's just a start. I'd set the displacement to the correct value and at least get a good starting point, even if it runs worse in the mean time.

    See if you can log engine torque values, torque correction, clutch position, throttle adaptives and any kind of idle or torque status bits. And you can get rid of engine position...it's too slow to be useful.