Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 43

Thread: Gen 3 coyote comp cams

  1. #1
    Potential Tuner
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    7

    Gen 3 coyote comp cams

    Have a 2018 a10 mustang I put comp cams (stage 2) in

    Upon startup car ran good, but then made a small ticking noise, and threw a check engine light (p0340, p0344)

    Decided to pull it apart and double check cam
    Timing was set correct, I didn?t see anything wrong however I retimed it, and same thing happened. Ran good a bit (2-3 min) Then made the noise, stumbled, and threw the check engine light

    When it throws the code the engine smooths out, however all cam timing is reverted to 0*

    Is the anything that needs to be changed in the tune on these gen 3s for cams?

  2. #2
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Detroit, MI
    Posts
    926
    Hard to say without data. But since it will phase the cams to help with catalyst warmup on a cold start, that could be what you're hearing. That tick could be detonation from preignition because the inferred airmass is incorrect now. I'd start by disabling any CSER cold start emissions reduction logic you can find.

  3. #3
    Potential Tuner
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    7
    I?m thinking it has something to do with the intake valve opening, closing, and exhaust valve closing being different now. There?s a place for them in the tune however I have no idea what those specs are on the new cams

  4. #4
    Tuner Robert00MustangTurbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    TEMECULA, CA
    Posts
    62
    Hello,

    Did you find out if it is tuning related or Mechanical?

    I have a 2020 Mustang GT A10 with the same exact issue. We tore it down and checked mechanical timing 3 times so far, both primary and secondary, replaced the Cam Position sensors, VCT actuators and VCT Phasers. Issue still persists.

    Here are the cam specs:

    We installed the Stage 2 Mutha' Thumpr NSR 232/242

    Engine Family:Ford Coyote 5.0L DOHC Modular 4 Valve 8 Cylinder (2018+)
    RPM Operating Range: 2,200-7,900
    Cam Type:Hydraulic Roller Finger Follower
    Lifter Style:Hydraulic Roller Finger Follower
    Camshaft Series:Thumpr NSR
    Stage:2
    Valve Springs Required:No
    Camshaft Material:Billet Steel
    Advertised Intake Duration: 280
    Advertised Exhaust Duration: 313
    Intake Duration at .050 Inch Lift: 232
    Exhaust Duration at .050 Inch Lift: 242
    Intake Valve Lift: 0.55
    Exhaust Valve Lift: 0.54
    Lobe Separation: 126


    Any input is appreciated.

    Thank You,
    Robert

  5. #5
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    482
    Email tune and I will check it over. [email protected]

  6. #6
    Tuner Robert00MustangTurbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    TEMECULA, CA
    Posts
    62

    Lightbulb

    After fighting this issue for 4 weeks, I have discovered the root cause to this particular issue. THIS IS NOT A TUNING RELATED ISSUE, IT'S A MECHANICAL ISSUE!

    Here's what I've found.

    As I mentioned last week, I have a 2020 Mustang GT A10 with the same exact issue. We tore it down and checked mechanical timing 3 times, both primary and secondary, replaced the Cam Position sensors, VCT actuators and VCT Phasers. The issue still persisted.

    Spoke to Comp Cams about the issue. They state it is a tune related issue. Customer is tuned by Lund so I spoke with Brandon at Lund Racing via email through the customers email thread. Brandon basically told me there's a mechanical issue on bank 1 (as we already know) and it's not tuning related.

    At this point, I flashed the stock map back on the vehicle, wrote my own map, opened the VCM scanner and took a log.

    Logged vehicle with ECT at 64F Degrees. Started vehicle and it's all smooth and quiet. Oil pressure between 89-92PSI. Once the vehicle starts warming up passed 140F degrees and oil pressure starts lowering below 50psi, The faint small ticking will begin to sound, VCT intake is at 20 degrees and VCT exhaust is at 0 Degrees.

    As the engine warms up past 160F Degrees and Oil Pressure lowers below 40psi, the ticking will become loud, then the VCT intake will try to go to 30 degrees and that's when the ticking becomes clacking, BUT ONLY ON BANK 1 INTAKE CAMSHAFT! You'll see very erratic VCT readings on Bank 1 Intake Camshaft.

    After 30 Seconds of Clacking and the PCM attempting to control the Camshaft, It will trigger a failsafe and reset all cams to 0 Degrees and the noises will go away. Code P0340 (Sometimes Code P0344) will be Illuminated.

    Gathering my data and going over the logs, there is an internal oil leak between the front of the camshafts and the VCT Phaser.

    Requested the customer to bring me his stock camshafts (L&M Intake Cams Were in there previously and no longer wanted to run them) and began tearing down the front of the engine for the 4th time.

    Pulled Bank 1 Intake Camshaft out and compared it to the stock camshaft and here is what I found.


    Picture 1 shown here, the stock camshaft has a straight cut on the center where the oil will feed the VCT Phaser into the correct oil channels.
    123783755_3515112131875357_8145266100238711471_n.jpg






    Picture 2 shown here is the Comp Camp Stage 2 Mutha' Thumpr, the center of the camshaft has a chamfer machined on the center where the oil feeds and the size of the oil channels seem a bit smaller than the stock camshaft.
    123602043_846455229490920_3622591609371438710_n.jpg
    Last edited by Robert00MustangTurbo; 11-09-2020 at 01:25 AM.

  7. #7
    Tuner Robert00MustangTurbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    TEMECULA, CA
    Posts
    62
    Now let's take a look at the mating surface of the phaser. (My Artistic skills isn't the greatest)

    Drawn is the stock camshaft with a straight cut oil feed and where the oil travels into the designated oil channels for the VCT.
    123606277_662577981286037_5273024201284375060_n.jpg



    On the Comp Cam Stage 2 Motha' Thumpr (My Artistic skills isn't the greatest)
    Drawn is the chamfered cut that was used on that camshaft. From testing with different making tools at my local machine shop who assisted us on finding this issue, the chamfer was cut at an angle to where the oil would bleed off into another channel, or even bleed off around the VCT Phaser all together when the engine temps are warm.
    Starting at the oil filter, Bank 2 would receive the oil pressure before bank 1. Being Bank 1 Camshaft is the farther oil gallery from the oil filter and highest point of the engine on that bank, The loss of oil pressure on the other cams cause Bank 1 VCT Phaser to starve oil below 50psi and start ticking and clacking when the PCM is trying to control the VCT Phaser.
    123656951_675557623392489_3286868859878364314_n (1).jpg

    At this point, it's either the stock camshafts will fix the issue or we have a problem in the cylinder head area on bank 1

    With that being said, We Installed the stock camshafts back into the engine and BAM! Full VCT Control and no noise. Engine runs like any other 2020 Coyote.

    This is the first set of Comp Cams Stage 2's I've encountered this issue with, and I hope this helps anyone who is encountering this issue ( I really hope the set we got was a set of Friday cams and not a whole fleet of them)

    Sent Comp Cams an email and seeing what happens. They make great camshafts so it surprises me that an issue like this occurred.
    Last edited by Robert00MustangTurbo; 11-03-2020 at 12:30 AM.

  8. #8
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    482
    Good info

  9. #9
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    605
    Nice write up Robert! Good job on y'all figuring it out too. What a nightmare!!


    Looking at photos of Thumpr cams for the Coyotes they all seem to have that chamfer. If the angle was cut incorrectly I could see this being a huge problem like you are saying!


    Please post back on what Comp Cams says in response. There's a large back order of those cams right now, I hope they aren't all coming out with that same cut!


    CompCams.gifCompCams2.jpg
    Knock Retard is the reduction or prevention of knock by lowering ignition timing:

    (+) Adding Knock Retard = Reducing Timing. PCM is seeing knock.
    (--) Lowering Knock Retard = Increasing Timing. PCM isn't seeing knock.
    __________________________________________________ ________

    2014 Mustang GT Premium. VMP Gen2R Supercharged with an FTI 3000rpm Converter. JLT, BMR, Steeda, Viking, etc.
    Don't fix it if it ain't broken | Maximum effort gets maximum results

  10. #10
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    12
    Was there an update on this thread, would be interesting to hear how it was fixed etc?

  11. #11
    Tuner Robert00MustangTurbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    TEMECULA, CA
    Posts
    62
    Unfortunately the customer provided the camshafts.

    However, with the report I provided, Comp Cams did send an RMA to replace the camshafts. Customer has sent them out and got a new set, but I have yet for that car to return to install the new set of cams to verify fix.

    I have installed multiple standard stage 2 camshafts with no issues since then, both N/A and supercharged, tuned easy and out they went, even with VCT lockouts. The Motha' Thumpr Camshafts I haven't seen them since then.
    Last edited by Robert00MustangTurbo; 02-15-2021 at 09:37 PM.

  12. #12
    There was certainly a small margin between that oil hole and chamfer for sure. Seems whoever grinds ford cams has a different fixture to hold the cams as i suspect that chamfer is to hold it in the lathe. Damn good catch though ,took some real out of the box thinking to get that one and i can say its much appreciated that you shared that story as it keeps a guy thinking. Peace

  13. #13
    Tuner Robert00MustangTurbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    TEMECULA, CA
    Posts
    62
    I'm happy to share because I want people to be aware of what occurred with that issue. I was tearing my hair out on that one. Talk about a relief when the dreaded ticking/clacking stopped

    Definitely not a fun experience.

  14. #14
    No one likes it when your in the middle of it but what a feeling when your find the fix. I am learning to walk away for a minute lol

  15. #15
    Potential Tuner
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Posts
    3
    Hello, I just re built the motor and went with Comp Cam stage 2 NSR cams for NA. The entire motor was rebuilt with all new internals. Nothing is stock in the engine expect for the block and valves. That being said, I got the engine in the car and I am being tuned by PBD. I can not get the cams to 0 at idle. We checked the timing and everything is in spec. This is very frustrating as the motor has been out for a few months and we cant get it going.
    I have a few data logs that I would love to share if someone would take a look. Attached are some photos of the build and a sound clip of the cams at idle Piston.jpgbackofmotor.jpgTop.jpg

  16. #16
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    New Orleans, LA
    Posts
    628
    what do the cams look like ?
    decipha @ EFIDynoTuning
    http://www.efidynotuning.com/

  17. #17
    Potential Tuner
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Posts
    3
    Sent you an email. Maybe you can help

  18. #18
    Tuner Robert00MustangTurbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    TEMECULA, CA
    Posts
    62
    Any MIL Codes? Those will be the tell tale if you have issues with the camshafts right off the bat.



    And did you follow these very steps that most people miss?
    Screenshot (4).png



    Lastly, is it making the noises described on this thread?



    I had another set of Stage 2 NSR N/A Cams on a Vortec supercharged 2019 Mustang GT (already equipped) that had very bad VCT control while driving due to, again, INTERNAL OIL LEAK BETWEEN THE PHASER AND THE CAMSHAFT. We initially thought it was an install error until we tore into it and everything checked out. Replaced with new VCT Phasers and actuators (Customer Requested). Same problem.

    Code P0340 (Sometimes Code P0344) will be Illuminated as soon as a wrench light is thrown. Unfortunately the customer did not have the stock camshafts. Verified again that the chamfer was cut too far, but it was close enough to sustain oil pressure at idle, but loses it under load while actuating, causing erratic VCT control and reading, ultimately triggering failsafe on VCT.


    What we ended up doing for this car since he did not have stock cams for it was installing a set of MMR 2018+ 5.0 Coyote Phaser Delete / Camshaft Adjuster & Lockout kit (Part # 451518) and ultimately Locking them out to fix the issue since the customer was in a rush. When you do this, you are required to degree the camshafts for correct operations. When degreed correctly, tuning will be a breeze and the powerband will be nice and smooth.


    This occurred a month ago now, and even before that we ran into the same issue on 2 other sets of NSR Cams. It's literally a hit or miss with this issue. Since then we stopped installing Comp Cams for 2018+ Mustangs until all this craziness is over. We even receive phone calls about this issue.

  19. #19
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    13
    Quote Originally Posted by paulsmithsr View Post
    Email tune and I will check it over. [email protected]
    cams are bad, probably the intake cam got dropped or wrenched on, or bad shipping...

  20. #20
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    482
    Sorry to hear that did comp cams get u new ones ?