Gen 3 coyote comp cams

[ishyne22]

ford performance makes upgraded phasers that leak less. But, that is a $400 risk and i can almost guarantee they will work for a short period. The other problem your facing is with the higher lobes of the camshaft make it more difficult for your phasers to operate and that is exacerbated as the engine oil gets to operating temp. It is my belief that if your going to stiffer springs or bigger cams one should lock out the phasers and enter your cam degrees manually.

[veeefour]

Any MIL Codes? Those will be the tell tale if you have issues with the camshafts right off the bat.



And did you follow these very steps that most people miss?
Attachment 108563



Lastly, is it making the noises described on this thread?



I had another set of Stage 2 NSR N/A Cams on a Vortec supercharged 2019 Mustang GT (already equipped) that had very bad VCT control while driving due to, again, INTERNAL OIL LEAK BETWEEN THE PHASER AND THE CAMSHAFT. We initially thought it was an install error until we tore into it and everything checked out. Replaced with new VCT Phasers and actuators (Customer Requested). Same problem.

Code P0340 (Sometimes Code P0344) will be Illuminated as soon as a wrench light is thrown. Unfortunately the customer did not have the stock camshafts. Verified again that the chamfer was cut too far, but it was close enough to sustain oil pressure at idle, but loses it under load while actuating, causing erratic VCT control and reading, ultimately triggering failsafe on VCT.


What we ended up doing for this car since he did not have stock cams for it was installing a set of MMR 2018+ 5.0 Coyote Phaser Delete / Camshaft Adjuster & Lockout kit (Part # 451518) and ultimately Locking them out to fix the issue since the customer was in a rush. When you do this, you are required to degree the camshafts for correct operations. When degreed correctly, tuning will be a breeze and the powerband will be nice and smooth.


This occurred a month ago now, and even before that we ran into the same issue on 2 other sets of NSR Cams. It's literally a hit or miss with this issue. Since then we stopped installing Comp Cams for 2018+ Mustangs until all this craziness is over. We even receive phone calls about this issue.

COMP was sold to another party...and things are going south since then...they were leaders of competition cams for years, not sure where are they now...

We had a bad set of cams like that from COMP - as a CNC engineer I'm no stranger to fixing stuff like that so we ended up fixing this on our own.
Was not that big of a deal and works as intended to this day.

[nmrastocker]

After fighting this issue for 4 weeks, I have discovered the root cause to this particular issue. THIS IS NOT A TUNING RELATED ISSUE, IT'S A MECHANICAL ISSUE!

Here's what I've found.

OMG - Can I mail you a high five for this?

I have a 2019 GT that I put the Comp 433430 cams in early last spring and had the same issue. I had the cams out 3x trying to figure out if I had done something wrong but it always looked proper. Initially PBD was tuning the car but it's hard to diagnose tune issues remote so I put a tune in the car and starting poking around. After a bit of work I was convinced that it wasn't in the tune from PBD or mine. It was driving me nuts and since the gen3 yotes were somewhat new I couldn't find any answers or people with similiar issues.

I can confirm that on my car the issue would come up once the oil pressure dropped below 40psi pretty consistently once the oil was warm. Cold oil held the VCT timing fairly well for the first minute or two after a cold startup. With this new info I'm thinking that when there is more pressure (and flow) that the leak at this location isn't bad enough to cause issues controlling the cams but when reduced the leak is a problem.

I can also confirm that my stock cams didn't have a chamfer at that location and that both the Comp Cams 433430 and a set of custom cams I have on hand DO have the chamfer. That worries me quite a bit.

I gave up on the car last summer after not finding the issue and moved on to other projects. Since then I've been debating on what to do with the cams/VCT/lockouts and was about to get back into it. Now I have hope! I've got the motor out now and when I pull it down I'll take a very close look at this area in the near future.

[nmrastocker]

COMP was sold to another party...and things are going south since then...they were leaders of competition cams for years, not sure where are they now...

We had a bad set of cams like that from COMP - as a CNC engineer I'm no stranger to fixing stuff like that so we ended up fixing this on our own.
Was not that big of a deal and works as intended to this day.

Did you just have them welded and re-drilled to eliminate the chamfer?

[walterva]

OMG - Can I mail you a high five for this?

I have a 2019 GT that I put the Comp 433430 cams in early last spring and had the same issue. I had the cams out 3x trying to figure out if I had done something wrong but it always looked proper. Initially PBD was tuning the car but it's hard to diagnose tune issues remote so I put a tune in the car and starting poking around. After a bit of work I was convinced that it wasn't in the tune from PBD or mine. It was driving me nuts and since the gen3 yotes were somewhat new I couldn't find any answers or people with similiar issues.

I can confirm that on my car the issue would come up once the oil pressure dropped below 40psi pretty consistently once the oil was warm. Cold oil held the VCT timing fairly well for the first minute or two after a cold startup. With this new info I'm thinking that when there is more pressure (and flow) that the leak at this location isn't bad enough to cause issues controlling the cams but when reduced the leak is a problem.

I can also confirm that my stock cams didn't have a chamfer at that location and that both the Comp Cams 433430 and a set of custom cams I have on hand DO have the chamfer. That worries me quite a bit.

I gave up on the car last summer after not finding the issue and moved on to other projects. Since then I've been debating on what to do with the cams/VCT/lockouts and was about to get back into it. Now I have hope! I've got the motor out now and when I pull it down I'll take a very close look at this area in the near future.

were you able to solve the problem?

[Modern]

After fighting this issue for 4 weeks, I have discovered the root cause to this particular issue. THIS IS NOT A TUNING RELATED ISSUE, IT'S A MECHANICAL ISSUE!

Here's what I've found.

As I mentioned last week, I have a 2020 Mustang GT A10 with the same exact issue. We tore it down and checked mechanical timing 3 times, both primary and secondary, replaced the Cam Position sensors, VCT actuators and VCT Phasers. The issue still persisted.

Spoke to Comp Cams about the issue. They state it is a tune related issue. Customer is tuned by Lund so I spoke with Brandon at Lund Racing via email through the customers email thread. Brandon basically told me there's a mechanical issue on bank 1 (as we already know) and it's not tuning related.

At this point, I flashed the stock map back on the vehicle, wrote my own map, opened the VCM scanner and took a log.

Logged vehicle with ECT at 64F Degrees. Started vehicle and it's all smooth and quiet. Oil pressure between 89-92PSI. Once the vehicle starts warming up passed 140F degrees and oil pressure starts lowering below 50psi, The faint small ticking will begin to sound, VCT intake is at 20 degrees and VCT exhaust is at 0 Degrees.

As the engine warms up past 160F Degrees and Oil Pressure lowers below 40psi, the ticking will become loud, then the VCT intake will try to go to 30 degrees and that's when the ticking becomes clacking, BUT ONLY ON BANK 1 INTAKE CAMSHAFT! You'll see very erratic VCT readings on Bank 1 Intake Camshaft.

After 30 Seconds of Clacking and the PCM attempting to control the Camshaft, It will trigger a failsafe and reset all cams to 0 Degrees and the noises will go away. Code P0340 (Sometimes Code P0344) will be Illuminated.

Gathering my data and going over the logs, there is an internal oil leak between the front of the camshafts and the VCT Phaser.

Requested the customer to bring me his stock camshafts (L&M Intake Cams Were in there previously and no longer wanted to run them) and began tearing down the front of the engine for the 4th time.

Pulled Bank 1 Intake Camshaft out and compared it to the stock camshaft and here is what I found.


Picture 1 shown here, the stock camshaft has a straight cut on the center where the oil will feed the VCT Phaser into the correct oil channels.
Attachment 104642






Picture 2 shown here is the Comp Camp Stage 2 Mutha' Thumpr, the center of the camshaft has a chamfer machined on the center where the oil feeds and the size of the oil channels seem a bit smaller than the stock camshaft.
Attachment 104644

We are having same issues. Customer bought cams 1 yr ago. Just now put them in.

[Robert00MustangTurbo]

We are having same issues. Customer bought cams 1 yr ago. Just now put them in.

Unfortunately, you'll have to yank em back out.

It's crazy to me that these cams are still having this issue.

I've just been doing full custom locked cams (MHS, MMR, etc.) and never looked back at Comp Cams NSRs.

[Modern]

Unfortunately, you'll have to yank em back out.

It's crazy to me that these cams are still having this issue.

I've just been doing full custom locked cams (MHS, MMR, etc.) and never looked back at Comp Cams NSRs.

We have done all lock outs on 18+... first vct control and now this issue.

[deanm11]

I did the highest "NSR" comp cams in my 2022. Early days but it runs great, appears to have full VCT control.
I added MMR's lightweight VCT plates (intake only) and did valve springs on the car, as well as upgraded chains, tensioners, etc.

[walterva]

I did the highest "NSR" comp cams in my 2022. Early days but it runs great, appears to have full VCT control.
I added MMR's lightweight VCT plates (intake only) and did valve springs on the car, as well as upgraded chains, tensioners, etc.

Could you help me review my tune or send me yours to see the differences? I don't have control of the phasers

[deanm11]

Happy to look.. I'm still figuring out the tuning... including part throttle VCT. You mean you aren't seeing the phasers respond? no codes or wrench light?

[deanm11]

Here's my tune so far. I fiddled with the map point VCT but haven't attempted tuning the Optimum Power VCT yet.

Car is FBO - full exhaust, E85 testing at about 70%...

I did about 475 before Cams. Now cams, valvetrain, electric water pump, little less restrictive exhaust configuration. I want to see 510 rwhp on the dynojet. Scheduled for April 21.

[walterva]

Here's my tune so far. I fiddled with the map point VCT but haven't attempted tuning the Optimum Power VCT yet.

Car is FBO - full exhaust, E85 testing at about 70%...

I did about 475 before Cams. Now cams, valvetrain, electric water pump, little less restrictive exhaust configuration. I want to see 510 rwhp on the dynojet. Scheduled for April 21.

I do have codes p0345, 0349, 0365 and 0369, but no wrench, it tells me that it goes to map 28 and puts the phasers at 0 degrees, it works fine but at 0s, thanks for the file

[deanm11]

Zero valvetrain / mechanical issues before the cams? Seems odd that you'd be going to MP28, I don't think I ever see it being used.

[walterva]

I did not have a single mechanical problem, I decided to buy the cams and when installing the vcts worked for a moment, then I changed to the 28 and 0 degree map, the vct appears as disabled

[walterva]

what oil do you use? motortrend use the 5w50 or it has nothing to do

[deanm11]

Sorry never saw the response about oil. I'm trying Valvoline European 5w40. When really warm, I do sometimes a little clacking from the right bank. I'm not sure if I have a bad tensioner or phaser. I haven't logged whiles its happening yet to see what the cam position is doing at the time. If I just tip in the throttle at tiny bit, when it happens, it goes away. I made 510rwhp with the cams and Holley short-ram manifold. It required lots of tuning of the cam positions. I'm tweaking my tune further based on analysis of my dyno runs. Latest tune attached.

[walterva]

The new tune to lock the cams is to deactivate the vct? Do I have to adjust any other part?

[deanm11]

There's physically locking the cams. Then there's tuning them that they don't change position. What are trying to do? With certain builds I think you need to to physically change the phasers so they're locked as even if you don't what to control them to move, the physical phasers will not survive the ordeal of higher rpm/loads.

[walterva]

There's physically locking the cams. Then there's tuning them that they don't change position. What are trying to do? With certain builds I think you need to to physically change the phasers so they're locked as even if you don't what to control them to move, the physical phasers will not survive the ordeal of higher rpm/loads.

Yes, I already have mmr, my question is if it is just deactivating the ti vct function? or change some other parameter?