2018 F150 "RPM limit"

[GregRexAdams]

Been chasing this a minute...2018 F150. It will show throttle source 4 which is engine RPM limit and close the throttle, which of course lets off the boost. AFAIK all limiters are maxed for RPM.

[LastPlace]

Been chasing this a minute...2018 F150. It will show throttle source 4 which is engine RPM limit and close the throttle, which of course lets off the boost. AFAIK all limiters are maxed for RPM.

Try this file.

Also what fuel system and fuel are you using?

You might want to disable flex fuel logic.

also you can try zero out tables 10010 and 10011 - read the description!!!!

"ECM] 10011 - IPC FMEM Reconfiguration, Group 1: The IPC can be reconfigured to report failures in different ways. A value of 0 will prevent reporting. This table is extremely high risk to modify, please do so at your own risk."
Screenshot (19).png

Greg Adams 2018 Ford F150 5.0 TT86 - try this.hpt

[GregRexAdams]

Thanks, I'll give that a shot!

Custom 3 pump setup (1 450, 2 525) with ID1300X, -8an line. Do you think it's hitting a fuel limit?

[LastPlace]

You need to add every “source”, “tr”, and “limit” pid that’s your scanner has available

Also how do you have your fuel pumps set up to come on two constant one on a Hobbs?

[GregRexAdams]

The two 525s come on with the Hobbs.

[LastPlace]

what psi?

your going going crazy lean until around 5-6 psi

[GregRexAdams]

I believe it's 3. Ran it this weekend and had the same issue. Trans protection RPM drops to 7300 for a split second and closes throttle. I forgot to add to the data log...long story, had some issues and literally hit the staging lanes right before the closed, so it slipped my mind. Here is the log from that pass. This is the file you sent me with the additon of some torque converter changes and the shift points raised as it had not closed the throttle on me since I made your changes.

[InnovativeDiesel]

See if this helps out.

[LastPlace]

I believe it's 3. Ran it this weekend and had the same issue. Trans protection RPM drops to 7300 for a split second and closes throttle. I forgot to add to the data log...long story, had some issues and literally hit the staging lanes right before the closed, so it slipped my mind. Here is the log from that pass. This is the file you sent me with the additon of some torque converter changes and the shift points raised as it had not closed the throttle on me since I made your changes.

I’m a little lost.

Your issue is fixed or not fixed?

[GregRexAdams]

InnovativeDiesel, thanks, will give it a shot.

LastPlace, still does it, but not as bad or as many gears. On the street it did awesome but I stopped at 115 mph. on the track it's still closing in the high gears (5-6, 6-7 even though it shouldn't be shifting 6-7, I have that shift point at like 8800). I just forgot to add the additional channels as we were in a rush.

[LastPlace]

try this one


Greg Adams 2018 Ford F150 5.0 TT86 - try this 2.hpt

[OzTuning]

The big issue is your air flow model and torque calculations are nowhere near correct. 10R80's are 100% torque based in their shift calculations, if the torque model is incorrect, then the transmission is never going to shift accurately. It also isn't going to last long because line pressure will not be adequate for the torque that's being produced. Your highest torque calc is 585 ft/lbs of torque, this engine is easily making double that at this boost level. Likely closer to 135% more torque than what's being reported.

There's several pieces to the puzzle, and even Whipple and Roush don't get it quite right. It all starts with having a proper airflow model, which your fuel trims, and calculated load versus MAP kPa are telling you is not accurate. So you have to fix that first. Then you have to set the calibration up to actually calculate torque values above 1.3 load, which is the cap for a naturally aspirated engine in Ford's VE models. You're also likely going to need to enable blow-through calculations on this setup, which is going to require quite a bit more airflow model tuning. Simplify your mapped point selections as well. Take a note out of Roush an Whipple's books, and look at how they setup the mapped points. There's no need for having so many mapped points active when there are no longer IMRC's to account for. Decide which cam positions you actually plan to use, and disable all the unneeded mapped points for the cam positions you aren't using. That alone will cut the workload down considerably to get this thing dialed.

Long gone are the days of Fuel/Air/Spark and call it done... You have to model all of the systems correctly, or it's going to fight you every step of the way. You can't just simply max out all the limits, and force it to do what you want it to do. None of it's terribly complicated, but you need to understand the order of progression, and how it all relates, and you can't fake it. You have to do the work to make it run right. There aren't any short cuts anymore.

[veeefour]

The big issue is your air flow model and torque calculations are nowhere near correct. 10R80's are 100% torque based in their shift calculations, if the torque model is incorrect, then the transmission is never going to shift accurately. It also isn't going to last long because line pressure will not be adequate for the torque that's being produced. Your highest torque calc is 585 ft/lbs of torque, this engine is easily making double that at this boost level. Likely closer to 135% more torque than what's being reported.

There's several pieces to the puzzle, and even Whipple and Roush don't get it quite right. It all starts with having a proper airflow model, which your fuel trims, and calculated load versus MAP kPa are telling you is not accurate. So you have to fix that first. Then you have to set the calibration up to actually calculate torque values above 1.3 load, which is the cap for a naturally aspirated engine in Ford's VE models. You're also likely going to need to enable blow-through calculations on this setup, which is going to require quite a bit more airflow model tuning. Simplify your mapped point selections as well. Take a note out of Roush an Whipple's books, and look at how they setup the mapped points. There's no need for having so many mapped points active when there are no longer IMRC's to account for. Decide which cam positions you actually plan to use, and disable all the unneeded mapped points for the cam positions you aren't using. That alone will cut the workload down considerably to get this thing dialed.

Long gone are the days of Fuel/Air/Spark and call it done... You have to model all of the systems correctly, or it's going to fight you every step of the way. You can't just simply max out all the limits, and force it to do what you want it to do. None of it's terribly complicated, but you need to understand the order of progression, and how it all relates, and you can't fake it. You have to do the work to make it run right. There aren't any short cuts anymore.

It's not just 10r80 but 6r80 as well, hell it's all them Ford tunes out there. That is why only few will ever be successful.

[murfie]

Don't confuse torque and horsepower. I don't think this is a coyote making 1375 ftlbs of torque. Maybe HP but not torque.

[OzTuning]

Don't confuse torque and horsepower. I don't think this is a coyote making 1375 ftlbs of torque. Maybe HP but not torque.

He's not logging indicated torque, only brake torque. So the estimate is based on that. I shot a bit high, but I've found the torque calc needs to be closer to flywheel torque than wheel torque for best transmission performance. Even if you're a little high on the torque calc, you'll have much better results versus being low. Realistically, at ~225 kpa, he's likely around 1100 ft/lbs of torque at the flywheel. Still much higher than what's being reported.

[OzTuning]

It's not just 10r80 but 6r80 as well, hell it's all them Ford tunes out there. That is why only few will ever be successful.

6R80's can still be "forced" to shift where desired by incorrectly adjusting tables to get the desired results. You can raise clutch pressures at lower torque inputs to get enough pressure to the clutches. I've even seen tunes where the torque axis was modified to reach the cells in the table they were trying to command. You can also command the shifts earlier or later to reach the desired shift RPM on a 6R80, and I've even seen clutch fill times adjusted to achieve this. Not right, but it can achieve the desired results, and you likely won't smoke the transmission if you "fake" it well enough.

10R80's aren't as forgiving. There aren't anymore clutch pressure tables. The line pressure is calculated based on the torque input, and the desired offgoing/oncoming torque rates. That calculation also determines fill times and slip times as well. There's very little true adaptive learning being done, other than the transmission adapting for individual tolerances relative to that transmission. That is typically felt as overly firm shifts after a flash and adaptive clear, but it won't improve the shift timing or shift points, which can happen in 6R80's that aren't tuned properly. 6R80's are much more heavily influenced by having the correct NV ratio, and setting oncoming and offgoing clutch pressures properly. Have the torque calc correct as well, and they shift where they should every time.

[murfie]

He's not logging indicated torque, only brake torque. So the estimate is based on that. I shot a bit high, but I've found the torque calc needs to be closer to flywheel torque than wheel torque for best transmission performance. Even if you're a little high on the torque calc, you'll have much better results versus being low. Realistically, at ~225 kpa, he's likely around 1100 ft/lbs of torque at the flywheel. Still much higher than what's being reported.

Id say 900-950 tops from an NA engine making 400ftlbs, but if you tell it 1100 the transmission uses higher pressures and might work better using a calculation never meant to control that much torque. 738ftlb(1000n*m) was a limit I couldn't ever find, luckily for me my car doesn't make that kinda torque and I never had to scale the torque to transmission pressure.

[OzTuning]

You can definitely calculate higher than 1000 nm. This is 2018 F150 with a Gen 5 Whipple on 14-15 psi. I highlighted the tq calcs. This is 2nd gear leave, and shifts are right at 7800 rpm. Crisp and clean, as you can see. Tq Calc.jpg

[Justinjor]

The big issue is your air flow model and torque calculations are nowhere near correct. 10R80's are 100% torque based in their shift calculations, if the torque model is incorrect, then the transmission is never going to shift accurately. It also isn't going to last long because line pressure will not be adequate for the torque that's being produced. Your highest torque calc is 585 ft/lbs of torque, this engine is easily making double that at this boost level. Likely closer to 135% more torque than what's being reported.

There's several pieces to the puzzle, and even Whipple and Roush don't get it quite right. It all starts with having a proper airflow model, which your fuel trims, and calculated load versus MAP kPa are telling you is not accurate. So you have to fix that first. Then you have to set the calibration up to actually calculate torque values above 1.3 load, which is the cap for a naturally aspirated engine in Ford's VE models. You're also likely going to need to enable blow-through calculations on this setup, which is going to require quite a bit more airflow model tuning. Simplify your mapped point selections as well. Take a note out of Roush an Whipple's books, and look at how they setup the mapped points. There's no need for having so many mapped points active when there are no longer IMRC's to account for. Decide which cam positions you actually plan to use, and disable all the unneeded mapped points for the cam positions you aren't using. That alone will cut the workload down considerably to get this thing dialed.

Long gone are the days of Fuel/Air/Spark and call it done... You have to model all of the systems correctly, or it's going to fight you every step of the way. You can't just simply max out all the limits, and force it to do what you want it to do. None of it's terribly complicated, but you need to understand the order of progression, and how it all relates, and you can't fake it. You have to do the work to make it run right. There aren't any short cuts anymore.

So where does one learn everything you mentioned? I am not one to half ass anything and want everything functioning correctly.

I sent you a PM too

[GregRexAdams]

It had nothing to do with the torque tables and airflow models in this case.

I raised the transmission protection lower clip, "no transfer case" limits, and transfer case low limits. I don't remember the transfer case limits being there before, so I'm not sure which one of the 3 fixed it and I'm not sure if I just kept overlooking those tables, but the issue is gone now.