I believe 542 is 90% throttle for our cars. The 2015+ actually say 90% throttle but I may be wrong.Originally Posted by WesDuenkel
I believe 542 is 90% throttle for our cars. The 2015+ actually say 90% throttle but I may be wrong.
?Our greatest success comes from failure? -Confucius
Weird. Is there a way to log AD counts and throttle percentage simultaneously? That way I could tie them together to make sure.
ITs not multiply, just a staight add 45-50ftlbs and you get what comes out of the transmission. Manuals there is no slip so no extra significant loss, autos have slip so you have to take into account what that does to engine brake torque. You don't need a dyno, but a dyno graph for a reference point helps. The ECU is calculating(a guess), and you can get away with that too.
Indicated and scheduled torque are not this. They assume MBT timing, stoich fuel, and standard temp pressure conditions. It uses those as a constant reference point to determine how things are operating. Things like IPC/trque reduction/TC all done by the ECU use these because in all conditions it should be the same like when a dyno uses corrections. Also the engine needs a minimum Idle torque that gets added on top of the engine brake torque.
Just suggestions based on the last tune file you posted. "Edelbrock v28 Drivability_1". MP9, 10, and OP need their quad, slope, and offset coefficients changed. The the main part of the SD that give you an calculated MAP from the MAF.Done. However, the Edelbrock tune only tweaked the factory MAF values down low. Throttle body model was only slightly modified.
Done. Thanks.
Good point regarding SAE channels. I noticed they were very "slow."
Ford M-9593-LU47. I checked the Edelbrock tune and verified the values are entered as Ford recommends.
Understood...mostly. This is all new to me, as this is the first car I'm learning to tune. STEEP learning curve!
And this is why I GREATLY appreciate the help provided here.
Noted. Are you implying I should change something else in SD besides changing MP 9, 10, and OP as suggested? (Just don't want to miss something).
As a side note: changing the MAP Max parameters under SD > General resulted in a weird behavior: After a heavy load event, the throttle would "stick" closed at light throttle. But after a while (say, 10-15 seconds, or a gear change) it would "time out" and the ETC would return to normal. I have a log of it, but didn't post it as I have bigger fish to fry. I suspect it's related to the Pressure Monitor > MAP Maximum IPC.
Regardless, I'll make these changes and report back. I can't thank you all enough for your invaluable help.
AD counts are not a direct relationship like you are thinking. thats why I said add trans throttle position ADC if you can find it. It can be calculated, you get close, but that usually doesn't get you in the right spot in the DD table. Best to just log these things if you can.
Last edited by murfie; 12-11-2020 at 10:36 AM.
Looks like I'm striking out. Here are the options:
Screen Shot 2020-12-11 at 10.44.12 AM.png
I would see if support can add it for you.
If you want to look at a dunno graph and estimate engine horsepower, it's not multiply either.
Add 50ftlb to the torque@ an rpm
Multiply by that RPM
Divide by 5252
That will give you an estimate of flywheel horsepower
I misread what you were saying. It makes sense. Based on the dyno sheet vs DD. @3000 rpm torque in DD is 365 and on the dyno sheet is ~315. So about a 45 lb ft difference between the two makes sense
OK, I made those changes and took another log. Making more progress. Three things:
1) The overshoot is still there, but seems less. That is borne out in the data.
2) At higher loads, the throttle oscillates. This is also in the data.
3) Excuse the long log. but I wanted to make sure I gathered plenty of data and "filled in" as much holes as I could.
Log and the tune file I used for the log are attached. Please take a look and let me know what you think. Thanks in advance!!!
Edelbrock drivability v32_1.hpl
Wes 2012 Mustang GT Edelbrock Blower Headers No Cats v32.hpt
I don't mind long logs.
You made some VCT changes and it never really went to MP9 or MP10, just OP. That's fine, but leave it the way it is, it seems much happier from MP behavior.
Put your TB model, including effective area table ECM 44364 back to stock.
ECM 44771 oscillation switch under torque management>general set to disabled (the logic doesn't know what its doing right now)
SD> Air-charge multiplier ECM2597, make the value of this table 2. (allows higher torque to be requested at higher calculated MAP's once VE hits 100% cylinder filling)
use the attached sheet values in driver demand.(The increased peak torque/RPM I want to request)(an educated guess with no pedal ADC)
Also in the sheet is values to move the IPC torque MAX/MIN to increase the "plausible window".
Gen1 coyote Eddy DD.xlsx
Add 'calculated manifold pressure' to channel list.
Sorry, that's one of the few things I reverted back to Edelbrock's tune as there is an off-idle tip-in dead spot that seems to be reduced with the Edelbrock throttle body model. But, I'll change it back to stock and see if there's a way to address it later.
Done. Understood, and thanks for explaining why.
Done. Understood, and thanks for explaining why.
Done. Understood, and thanks for explaining why. I also requested via support to add Throttle ADC to available channels. Fingers crossed.
Done. I'll do another log when the weather improves (hopefully tomorrow).
Thanks again for your help, advice, and explanations.
Besides ECM 2597, should I also change 44353 Load at WOT?
You have standard air charge (engine displacement) .00167 lb. This is air mass at a standard pressure and temp. ECM 32004 moves this value up and down based ECT and IAT. ECM 12006 caps that number for increased pressure to an absolute load. This is how the higher IATs meaning a larger value makes since as airload(absolute load) is current airmass/ standard airmass and can be greater than one. When standard airmass gets bigger, since its in the denominator, Air load would come out to less with larger multipliers and more with smaller multipliers. All this means is the ECU does not start thinking the engine actually starts to get bigger in displacement when really there's just more manifold pressure.
You also have Maximum Air charge(ecm 44353) (standard corrected for all conditions ect, iat, map). This is a Maximum to calculated load. Calculated load is (in cylinder air density/ Manifold air density) I use density to imply temperature and pressure changes are dynamic. so if you have 80* f and 50inHg(~10psi boost) in your manifold, thats the best you can get into the cylinder. Most RPMs it comes out less than 100%, and certain spots you might get 101-102%. The aircharge multiplier lets airmass in the VE side of load get higher than .00167 and not just increase MAP at .00167. So no need to change ecm 44353 for now. we will look at calculated load later and make adjustments to get it to 100% @ WOT. If you need to stay less than 100% VE lowering it is usually what happens.
In this picture the dot/dash line is maximum aircharge or 100% VE. Above it (high MAP for low airmass) is less than 100% VE. Below it (low MAP for high airmass) is above 100% VE. With the multiplier at 1 it would follow the red line. You see logs where calculated load drops to 50-60% from 100% once you go into boost. With it increase it can continue to follow the green line(dot/dash).
US20130111900A1-20130509-D00002.png
Last edited by murfie; 12-12-2020 at 02:25 PM.
Ah, I think I follow you. Another way to think of it: VE is how the cylinders are filled relative to the pressure inside the manifold, not pressure outside the engine. Since this engine doesn't have a MAP sensor, the challenge is getting the calculated MAP correct, since there's so much more air flowing through the MAF and throttle body than PCM thinks there *should* be for the factory naturally aspirated configuration.
There also seems to be some confusion as what to enter for 12006 Max Aircharge Load. Mine is set to 1.90, while others say it should be 1.00, even for a supercharged car. 44351 follows the boost curve from my dyno session (plus a little extra). Not sure if that's correct...?
Screen Shot 2020-12-12 at 7.07.20 PM.png
Last edited by WesDuenkel; 12-12-2020 at 07:08 PM.
With barometric pressure being the reference point, it moves around, especially with elevation changes. With no sensor its learned from the TB model and airflow. This is how much manifold pressure are you going to see inside the manifold compared to outside the engine. SC are dependent on their driven speed so they are effected by change in barometric pressure. Turbo's have a wastegate that targets a manifold pressure. A turbo will spin faster at higher elevation to hit its target manifold pressure. wastegate spring pressure eliminates the usefulness of this delta table. That all changes between a manual boost controller and electronic/C02 boost controller. When using those this table becomes a representation of that controllers relationship and the manifold pressure.
Would this cause the "Throttle Learn Corr" PID to show negative percent if you didn't set this right? On a couple blow through (centri) blower cars that I've tuned it always goes positive but I recently swapped to a turbo on my personal car and now that number is negative and I get a dead pedal/some type of throttle FMEM (without anything showing under sources that would show trouble) the second I hit 1 inhg above baro. The only way to fix it is to disable the Master Switch for Desired Airmass logic. When I turn this switch off everything works fine but I have yet to solve that or even figure out what the Throttle Learn Corr PID is even for.
Sorry I haven't had a chance to get back to this and provide an update. HPtuners responded and will have me repoll for the AD counts PID with the Beta software. I've been buried with other work, but I hope to have some new data before Christmas. Thanks again for all the help so far.
AD counts map perfectly linearly to pedal % with the correct scaling factor.
I sorted this out a while back, so you don't need the AD channel:
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...ve-Pedal-Count
Pedal voltage > pedal adv
Pedal adv >pedal percent
Would would need the voltage range for it to be perfect. Just assume you are bad at math and use the right pid.
I haven't seen a single Copperhead table referencing the pedal voltage. They use either percent or ADC, so it's hard to imagine what benefit would be had from watching voltage.
If you are so bad at math that taking a PID and multiplying by a single scaling value is hard, tuning Copperheads is probably not the best hobby.
Pedal % * 6.05 is essentially a perfect match for the Pedal ADC channel, so why log both? Any pedal related tables don't even need that level of accuracy.
I'm not the one who had to correct my math after seeing the actual PID. Then still couldn't get it exact.
Really of you are approximating do you really need a calculator to turn 100% into 600adc?
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