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Thread: Looking for pump gas logs from supercharged 2018+ 5.0

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    Looking for pump gas logs from supercharged 2018+ 5.0

    I?ve been working to optimize spark timing on a 2018 Whipple mustang on true 93. The numbers I can reach before knock are quite low, and I?m even on the 4.0? pullley (~10 psi). Can anyone else post a log for a true 93 octane pull for any supercharged 2018+ 5.0 so I can see what?s going on? To be clear, no Boostane, no methanol, and no ethanol (beyond e10).

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    Pump gas. Probably 12 degrees

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    Not my tune but a friend's Edelbrock 2650 2019 manual car on a canned tune. Looks like 16 degrees up top.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulsmithsr View Post
    Pump gas. Probably 12 degrees
    Not quite, that is a very rough and wrong guesstimation.

    We've been able to reach 20-ish without much of a knock - you fueling need to be right, your torque model has to be spot on.
    If your TM is off your LOAD is off and your fueling will never be correct. To lean or to rich it will knock even at 9 degrees...

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    Quote Originally Posted by engineermike View Post
    I?ve been working to optimize spark timing on a 2018 Whipple mustang on true 93. The numbers I can reach before knock are quite low, and I?m even on the 4.0? pullley (~10 psi). Can anyone else post a log for a true 93 octane pull for any supercharged 2018+ 5.0 so I can see what?s going on? To be clear, no Boostane, no methanol, and no ethanol (beyond e10).
    You do realize there is approx 20hp for each 1 degree you can gain there?

    Sometimes not worth the effort, customer will go cheap on fuel fills crappy 93 and engine blows up, blames the tuner...see where the peak is, back is up 1 degree...not going to break records on 93.

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    Part of it is how lean you run it and what cam timing you are running so hard to give generic timing numbers. Personal car you want to push a bit without having to worry much about it you could always run race gas and dial knock sensors back just enough to get some timing in it. Can't always get customers to shell out the money for that kind of thing so just have to stick with something you know is good and safe but that's what I would do if it were my own car or someone says I want to make good power safely on 93 and don't care to spend a little more time and money to get there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by veeefour View Post
    We've been able to reach 20-ish without much of a knock - you fueling need to be right, your torque model has to be spot on.
    If your TM is off your LOAD is off and your fueling will never be correct.
    20 is very high on one of these...I would love to see a detailed log of that so I can see the GDI blend and timing, cam timing, loads, and temperatures.

    Quote Originally Posted by veeefour View Post
    To lean or to rich it will knock even at 9 degrees...
    Lambda isn't the issue, almost certainly. It's running .82 until it enters cat protect, where it goes to .71.

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    Quote Originally Posted by veeefour View Post
    You do realize there is approx 20hp for each 1 degree you can gain there?

    Sometimes not worth the effort, customer will go cheap on fuel fills crappy 93 and engine blows up, blames the tuner...see where the peak is, back is up 1 degree...not going to break records on 93.
    Yes, I do realize 1 deg is about 20 hp, which is why I am pushing to test and optimize this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Witt View Post
    Not my tune but a friend's Edelbrock 2650 2019 manual car on a canned tune. Looks like 16 degrees up top.
    Thank you, this is helpful. Not that you need my analysis, but it is interesting that his air load peaks around 5700 rpm, where the spark timing is 10-13 deg. Then the load starts dropping dramatically and timing increases to 16 deg. I'm guessing this is the Stage 1 that uses the stock throttle body? I know Edelbrock spins that 2650 really fast, which gives great low-end torque, but the stock TB starts choking it up top (if it's Stage 1). His 16 deg at 1.3 load and 12 deg at 1.5 is about what I can get as well, which aligns with @paulsmithjr comments.

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    Yea there are a lot of variables. - afr. And IAT. But from what I seen safely. 12 degree. Or just add E85. And rock and roll

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    Quote Originally Posted by engineermike View Post
    Thank you, this is helpful. Not that you need my analysis, but it is interesting that his air load peaks around 5700 rpm, where the spark timing is 10-13 deg. Then the load starts dropping dramatically and timing increases to 16 deg. I'm guessing this is the Stage 1 that uses the stock throttle body? I know Edelbrock spins that 2650 really fast, which gives great low-end torque, but the stock TB starts choking it up top (if it's Stage 1). His 16 deg at 1.3 load and 12 deg at 1.5 is about what I can get as well, which aligns with @paulsmithjr comments.
    Pretty much spot on. Car has since been custom tuned and on e85.

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    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by engineermike View Post
    Lambda isn't the issue, almost certainly. It's running .82 until it enters cat protect, where it goes to .71.
    I can get you a log with lambda .82 running 9 degrees and knocking, and the same car with .82 and 20 degrees and not knocking.
    One will make 500 hp other over 700 - you can have perfect spark and afr but still a lot of issues if your SD or TM is off.

    You are missing the point - good AFR is not enough with those cars.

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    @veefour I would love to look at those logs. I know that A/F isn’t all that affects knock but you referenced it in post 4 so I was addressing that.

    I’m trying to draw a connection between SD and TM being off and how that affects the engine in a way that would translate to knock. For instance, would poorly calibrated Torque and SD tables result in incorrect throttle opening, cam timing, gdi blend, or fuel flow?

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    His full of bs ——-all talk. No proof
    No way 20 degree on pump,gas And no knock. Boosted at 1.5 load
    Listen to him and blow your stuff up
    I get knock on 2018 stock 5.0 motor on 25 degrees plus—on pump gas
    Last edited by paulsmithsr; 11-23-2020 at 10:49 PM.

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    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulsmithsr View Post
    His full of bs ——-all talk. No proof
    No way 20 degree on pump,gas And no knock. Boosted at 1.5 load
    Listen to him and blow your stuff up
    I get knock on 2018 stock 5.0 motor on 25 degrees plus—on pump gas
    Check our FB "mr tuner", we build 20 boosted cars this year nothing blew LAMO

    2018 Mustang boosted, load 1.5 and 20 degrees of timing on 100 RON - perfectly doable but we back it up to 17 in final revision.
    Again if you can't do it, it doesn't mean others can't...
    Last edited by veeefour; 11-24-2020 at 05:54 AM.

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    U said pump gas. Now it race gas. Lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulsmithsr View Post
    U said pump gas. Now it race gas. Lol
    Race gas? Where? You mean Q16 or something?

    98 and 100 RON is a pump gas here LAMO

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    I was really looking for logs and info on 93 (r+m)/2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by engineermike View Post
    I was really looking for logs and info on 93 (r+m)/2.
    Which corresponds to 98 RON