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Thread: 2015 SS with E38 A6 and LSA - beginner questions

  1. #1
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    2015 SS with E38 A6 and LSA - beginner questions

    Hi all, I installed and LSA on my 2015 Chevy SS and I have built a working tune that it seems to run decent with, but I have been deliberately keeping out of the pedal to get some logs and see where I need to go from here. The system is basic with:
    - LS3 stock with stock exhaust, etc
    - DW injectors 65lb/hr
    - new S/C with ZL1 lid and stock pulleys
    - ZL1 heat exchanger with bosch pump
    - Still working on building the Air intake but have the stock maf with a filter on it.

    I chose a minimalist approach to get it running to minimize variables but I spent a lot of time on the high octane timing table and looking at other database tunes to get something I think will be safe to start off with.

    I'm using the 3 bar MAP on the S/C lid, but haven't done the breakout for the temp sensor yet (will do this week on holiday). I runs and idles nicely on this tune and at light throttle acceleration seems to do okay. I haven't taken it over 3000 rpm yet and very slight/part throttle to get some data.
    I have an LC1 wideband I wll install this week as well so right now just using feedback from stock O2s as I gradually
    So my questions:
    1. When should I have it set to go into power enrichment mode?
    2. Should I be tuning VVE on this car? Do I need to? I have an LS7 maf card that will be going in once I build my intake.
    3. Whats the best way to test that I'm ready to get into the throttle? Having a wideband and safe timing are my present plan.

    So my overall intent is to make it drive like stock off throttle, which it feels pretty much like that right now, then run safe under boost. I have no specific power goals, just want to maximize what I can obtain from the setup above with a balance tune (risk vs. safety) while retaining as much stealth/stock characteristic as possible.

    Thanks in advance
    J.

  2. #2
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    So I unplugged the MAF and tuned the VVE table using the fuel trims with part throttle driving. It gradually took on a new shape but I have no data points to adjust the VVE table above 4K rpm. With the engine set to use MAF around that RPM, should I even worry about it? It drives and shifts much better now, and in one or two situations I can see it is going into PE mode though I was keeping out of the pedal....so answered my own question I guess. Maybe if I keep getting 'radio silence' from here I'll just learn a lot more...
    However, I hope I'll get some input on whether I should set the transition to MAF at a low rpm in order to tune it the new LS 7 card that I added.

  3. #3
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    Have you seen this thread? I found it very useful... https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...ation-for-gen4

    The method discussed in that thread allows you to calibrate your MAF and VVE simultaneously. I am using this method in all of the low load cruise areas in my tune, but in order to not hurt the engine, I plan to get some dyno time later to do a full mapping of the MAF across the entire load range with a wideband for feedback. I'll also work on the VVE and the timing.

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    Thanks for linking this. I had not seen it but it is interesting. I may try to set this up when I'm fresh in the morning with a cup of coffee...
    I did a lot of logs dialing in the vve table already and started working in the maf tonight. However, this may make it easier to do the maf and maybe fine tune that vve table. Truthfully I'm so new to this that I really only just figured out how to modify this stuff in the last week after a friend helped me out with a q & a session.

  5. #5
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    By the way, in that thread it mentions the MAT and zeroing out some tables if the IAT is relocated. Sounds like these tables calculate/infer MAT based on the old IAT position. What are your thoughts on this?

  6. #6
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    MAT reading is the bias between the iat and ect, shifting the bias moves the reading closer to one or the other depending on where the IAT sensor is now

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    Injector Tip Temp

    Hey I jumped on here to try to give you a little better idea about the "Rich after Flash"...I know that thread we read was very informative, but a lot to digest for us beginning Tuners...
    It centers around the Intake valve temperature table which increases injector pulse to add fuel for "heat soaked" type conditions. This is in either open or closed loop (as far as I can tell) as its an adder in the injector calibrations.
    After you Flash a Tune it is Automatically set high so it adds fuel until it gets below "X" value in the table. From my testing this weekend, logging Injector Tip Temp this is what I saw. Good cold night with Air Intake temps low, it seems to come down pretty quick. Shut off a hot engine for a period of time (going into store) get everything heat soaked, it took a good 15 minutes of driving at highway speed for it to come down below the adder level...
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  8. #8
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
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    Open Loop Gains

    Then in Open Loop there are 2 tables that they talked about... Intake Valve Temp Gain and Injector Temp Gain... These don't seem to cause as much trouble as the previous one....
    So I just waited to do my logs until all of the adders were below their thresholds...After I get everything dialed in I'm going to go back and try to "Tune" the Injector Tip Temp as they did in that thread...

    Hope this helps
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhoagland View Post
    Hey I jumped on here to try to give you a little better idea about the "Rich after Flash"...I know that thread we read was very informative, but a lot to digest for us beginning Tuners...
    It centers around the Intake valve temperature table which increases injector pulse to add fuel for "heat soaked" type conditions. This is in either open or closed loop (as far as I can tell) as its an adder in the injector calibrations.
    After you Flash a Tune it is Automatically set high so it adds fuel until it gets below "X" value in the table. From my testing this weekend, logging Injector Tip Temp this is what I saw. Good cold night with Air Intake temps low, it seems to come down pretty quick. Shut off a hot engine for a period of time (going into store) get everything heat soaked, it took a good 15 minutes of driving at highway speed for it to come down below the adder level...
    yyup...what ever you do OP do not zero this table out as some people have recommended previously. You need to tune it if you have aftermarket injectors

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    jebrant,

    You should also make adjustments to your rpm and map zone boundaries since you will now see boost. Here is an example. It may not be the best but gives you an idea where to go. The idea is to increase your resolution in the areas that the engine will see.

    I assume that you already put in DW's injector data? VERY important.

    Post a tune and log if you need more help.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  11. #11
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgod1100 View Post
    yyup...what ever you do OP do not zero this table out as some people have recommended previously. You need to tune it if you have aftermarket injectors
    Yes, do NOT zero the table..
    I just went for a long drive and my Injector valve temp was about 126 degrees, MAF error log was about -.5 to -1.5....
    Went into store for about 30 minutes, Started car and Intake valve temp was about 146 degrees, MAF error log was about +1.5 to +3 and this is in the correction range. I would hate to see how lean I was without this correction...

    So I actually need to increase my pulse width correction in that range for a good tune..
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  12. #12
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    inj temp offset as a starting point divide it by how much bigger your new injectors are, if they flow double the stock injectors then halve the ITT table to get u in the ballpark quicker then fine adjust from there

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhoagland View Post
    Yes, do NOT zero the table..
    I just went for a long drive and my Injector valve temp was about 126 degrees, MAF error log was about -.5 to -1.5....
    Went into store for about 30 minutes, Started car and Intake valve temp was about 146 degrees, MAF error log was about +1.5 to +3 and this is in the correction range. I would hate to see how lean I was without this correction...

    So I actually need to increase my pulse width correction in that range for a good tune..
    yeah, with my larger injectors (ID850s) my car would get SUPER rich once it was heat soaked so I had to decrease this table a decent amount. All i did was use my fuel trims against my ITT. Had to pull out alot of fuel in the higher temp regions

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    Quote Originally Posted by NotSure View Post
    jebrant,

    You should also make adjustments to your rpm and map zone boundaries since you will now see boost. Here is an example. It may not be the best but gives you an idea where to go. The idea is to increase your resolution in the areas that the engine will see.

    I assume that you already put in DW's injector data? VERY important.

    Post a tune and log if you need more help.
    Thank you, I will take a look at these tonight.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhoagland View Post
    Hey I jumped on here to try to give you a little better idea about the "Rich after Flash"...I know that thread we read was very informative, but a lot to digest for us beginning Tuners...
    It centers around the Intake valve temperature table which increases injector pulse to add fuel for "heat soaked" type conditions. This is in either open or closed loop (as far as I can tell) as its an adder in the injector calibrations.
    After you Flash a Tune it is Automatically set high so it adds fuel until it gets below "X" value in the table. From my testing this weekend, logging Injector Tip Temp this is what I saw. Good cold night with Air Intake temps low, it seems to come down pretty quick. Shut off a hot engine for a period of time (going into store) get everything heat soaked, it took a good 15 minutes of driving at highway speed for it to come down below the adder level...
    This is definitely what I've been experiencing this past weekend. Not terrible but I started watching the Inj Tip Temp and waiting for it to come down into the 120s F before stopping and starting a fresh data log.

  16. #16
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    datalog

    21-01-17 15-41-39.hpl

    As far as the zone maps, I haven't adjusted them. Since my car is an auto I seem to spend most of my time between 1200-2200 rpm when I'm driving around normal/part throttle. Do you have any recommendations on what boundaries to use?

    Here is a datalog from today. The others files won't seem to upload but I'll try again tomorrow. In this file the MAF is plugged back in and I was logging to correct the MAF transfer function now that the VVE curve seems pretty good. I made some changes based off this and will get another log file that isn't so long or big and then upload the corresponding log and tune tomorrow.

    Thanks

  17. #17
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
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    Are you still tuning off your o2 error?
    This log shows you o2's responding really slow, flat lining many times in pretty steady state operation..

    I think the sooner you get the wide band installed the better it will be for you...
    I'm sure you have read about the tables to "tune" your o2's for better response, but I'm guessing its better to dial everything in with a wide band first, but thats a green tuners idea...
    Last edited by dhoagland; 01-17-2021 at 11:02 PM.
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  18. #18
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    vve boundaries i find just use the map/rpm range to suit your engine and set the boundaries up so the zones are like a chess board as even as u can, all they are is calculations so the more even they are to the surrounding ones the smoother it seems to end up once done

  19. #19
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    Okay thanks.

    So I am looking at the Inj Tip Temp and I'm wondering what the units are for the values. Some of the post I read talked about milliseconds, I believe I read .00078 or something was as much as 5%, and perhaps that is ECU dependent because my values in my E38 seem to indicate EQ ratio?
    So I have Deatchwerks 65 lb injectors and I was very careful when loading the data. But that means they are over fifty percent bigger than stock, or stock flow only sixty-five percent of what these should flow.
    Therefore should I scale the entire table by .65? Seems quite small and no other tables I see are that small.

  20. #20
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    Now that I look at it I suspect those are percentages above commanded EQ, so I guess I need to take .65 of the portion greater than one....can anyone confirm?