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Thread: Brand new to tuning

  1. #1
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    Brand new to tuning

    Hi, as the title suggests this is my first time doing real tuning. I purchased HPTuners with the MPVI2 about a year ago or longer, to do some tuning for an idle issue I had. I had a friend who knew more than me help me, and we got that issue resolved. I don't know how spot on the tuning really is, but the car idles and runs pretty good. It is a 2006 CTS-V LS2 with a TSP 402 stroker, TF as cast heads, BTR4 cam, Fast 92 intake, headers, other supporting items, etc. I've been watching various videos on the tuning subject, and certainly have a long way to go. The good news is I am knowledgeable and have a very good understanding of how everything works at a high level. I'm hoping to get a few quick answers to help me keep on keepin on. It was a big leap for me today actually making adjustments and writing to the ECM, etc. I'm excited that it seems to be going well (haven't blown it up yet...).


    I actually started doing some MAF tuning today and it has been going fairly well. I've mainly been following goat rope garage videos. I purchased an AEM X Series 30-0333 (with the OBD2 pass through) and it pulled up in the scanner just fine. When I went to do the maths to create the MAF error ratio I was not able to locate that wideband. I found some other signals that seem to work (generic WB) and they appear to be giving the correct data. I was wondering if anyone could confirm I have this setup correctly, or if there's some other way to pull in that WB for the math? Here is what I'm using:

    100 * ([50127.238] - [50118.238]) / [50118.238]

    50127 is EQ Ratio #1 [Sensor]
    50118 is EQ Ratio Commanded [Sensor]

    I found a few other threads where people had similar issues with this particular OBD2 pass through WB but couldn't really find a concrete answer. This seems to be reading correctly, just would like it verified.


    When I first started tuning the MAF, I may have made a mistake... I started data logging with a cold engine. It didn't occur to me until later that the ecm will adjust fueling based on ECT, so this may not be accurate data. I'm not 100% sure I'm thinking correctly about this though. Should I only log with fully warm engine?

    What was strange, though, is that when I fired it up, it was not running rich, it was about 17% lean at those couple idle airflow cells it was hitting on the MAF. I stopped there and multiplied the entire MAF table by 1.17 trying to get it to 0. Then it was rich, maybe 8 or 10%. I drove and logged from here on and did about 10 iterations of this (multiplying MAF table by % half) and repeating. It seemed to get better and better every time, and the car drives fine (can't tell a difference really). The only issue I had driveability wise was that first time when it was super rich it didn't like low rpms, it was wanting to stall a couple times.

    So, I had let the car sit and cool off, then drove home doing another log. It was again very lean at startup. I let it fully warm up then restarted my log. It was still a little lean in most areas but only a few percent. It just seems odd that it was rich all day then after sitting it went lean. Is there something I may be overlooking being that I'm new to this?

    I should also note I have decel fuel cutoff disabled, clutch in fuel cutoff disabled, I removed 5 deg base timing from entire table, and apparently my car was tuned MAF only (dynamic airflow disable rpm set to 400), so I didn't have to force it out of speed density. I also turned off closed loop by raising O2 Readiness ECT higher than actual operating temp.

    The only real issue I've noticed through all the tuning today was that after making the changes and writing the tune to the car, the car was very hard to start almost every time (a couple times I really thought it wasn't gonna start). It cranked like it was under a lot of stress. I'm not sure if it has something to do with the tuning or what. The car always was slightly harder when it was hot, but not this bad.

    Any help appreciated. I'm sure this is all covered somewhere, and I've been watching videos. It'll just take time/practice/experience. I have a pretty good grasp of the MAF that's why I started with it. I plan to eventually learn how to reenable SD on my car and tune VVE tables but right now I'm just not there.

  2. #2
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    You said it idled well after you and your friend tuned it. Did the hard starting develop after new changes or just over time on your good tune?

  3. #3
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    To be honest I'm not sure. When I first bought it, I barely drove it. I almost always never restarted it hot for over a year (drove only to/from work, etc.). Now that I've got a lot of stuff done on the car, it's becoming more of a daily, so more hot restarts (grocery store, running errands with the wife, etc.). I've always noticed it being slightly harder to start when hot, but not super bad.

  4. #4
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
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    Can you post a log?
    I'm kind of green, but If I see your scanner layout I might be able to help

    One huge concern I have is a wideband that hasn't been transformed without accurate data. Obviously if its off everything else is too...
    BTW Goat Rope has a videos to compare your wide band to o2 readings for a calibration sanity check..
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
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  5. #5
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    Thanks, I found that video and will check that my wideband is reading properly. I'll try to post a log later if I can figure out how, just got back in town from the holidays. I'll have to research about transforming the wideband as I don't know what that means.

  6. #6
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
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    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  7. #7
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
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    Wideband Calculator

    Ed Posted thus up in 2018

    I used it and my mine reads right on
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  8. #8
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    I'm trying to attach a log file, let's see if it works. Ignore all the other graphs, the only ones I am really using are the EQ Ratio MAF Low and EQ Ratio MAF High. The other MAF EQ Ratio ones were using other wideband channels, I was trying to figure out how to pull my wideband in. They all give the same reading though.

    MAF Step 9.hpl

    I'm a bit confused about that transformation. How do you know what formula to use? My wideband is an obd2 pass through, not plugged into the MPVI, so I'm not even sure if it works the same way... This is my first wideband so I have a learning curve.

    I appreciate the help.

    I just saw the excel file you posted. I'll have to read through my wideband manual again, but I don't remember seeing much info about this.
    Last edited by snrusnak; 12-31-2020 at 09:48 AM.

  9. #9
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
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    Okay, I think you are good with your wideband... I was not aware of the OBD pass through... It doesn't look like you can transform them, or need to, (don't quote me on that)....
    Your graphs didn't come through, your log defaulted to mine (maybe that is normal, I'm learning too)

    To get your wideband into your graph (At least it worked for a chart I made to read your log)...
    Go to Graphs Layout, click the graph to modify or add new, click parameteres, click the gear to isolate what is available to you.. Go down to Maths, Lamda, EQ Error (as your wideband seems to be set to Lambda)

    To get your wideband into your chart...
    Charts layout, add series, insert parameter. Click the gear, go to engine, fuel, open/closed loop, oxygen sensor, and your wideband is there..

    I hope this is what you were looking for, if not hit me back up and I'll do my best

    Also... Rich after flash is normal (something about Intake Valve Temperature table) Go out and do a few hard accelerations then things should settle in to reflect your new tune...
    Last edited by dhoagland; 12-31-2020 at 04:25 PM. Reason: Added Comment
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  10. #10
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    I appreciate your help. I have been working around the clock and haven't had time to spend on this. I'm going to mess with it more when I get a free day and will post back for any more help I need.

  11. #11
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
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    https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...ip-Temperature
    Post #22 is a great add to the original

    This weekend I logged Injector Tip Temp and was amazed at the effect this had on my tuning... I waited to log anything until it was below the level where it applied correction, obviously big difference...
    Another thing I stumbled on was idle readings were sometimes inconsistent on start up (with injector temp below 135, which in my tune is the point of no correction)..
    If I drove around the block they would richen up a little, I'm writing it off to my o2 sensors not being completely heated, but that is an assumption on my part..

    Next I'm going to install a wideband and tune the injector tip temp scale as per the posted thread
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhoagland View Post
    .....
    Also... Rich after flash is normal (something about Intake Valve Temperature table) Go out and do a few hard accelerations then things should settle in to reflect your new tune...
    So the rich after reflash problem can be self correcting?

  13. #13
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jebrant View Post
    So the rich after reflash problem can be self correcting?
    Yes after the tables fall below the correction temperature.

    I said Intake Valve Temperature, it effects it too, but only in open loop...
    Injector Tip Temperature is what I should have said.

    Good read here (maybe confusing at first, but log the temps and watch your fuel corrections and you will see).
    https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...ip-Temperature
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  14. #14
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    Okay I read the thread two times! confusing though and I don't want to hijack this thread so I'll ponder this a while because I think I'm experiencing it.

  15. #15
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    I need to read through that some more, but it is making sense. I am finally getting caught up enough to mess with this tuning again. So after a flash, since it will be running rich, should I wait a while to start logging data so it won't be skewed? How long does it take? Also, does power enrichment matter for data logging? I haven't done anything to power enrichment, so if I log some WOT pulls, won't that skew my data? Similarly, should I wait until the engine has reached normal operating temp to start logging data, since fuel will be enriched by ECT, etc?

  16. #16
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snrusnak View Post
    I need to read through that some more, but it is making sense. I am finally getting caught up enough to mess with this tuning again. So after a flash, since it will be running rich, should I wait a while to start logging data so it won't be skewed? How long does it take? Also, does power enrichment matter for data logging? I haven't done anything to power enrichment, so if I log some WOT pulls, won't that skew my data? Similarly, should I wait until the engine has reached normal operating temp to start logging data, since fuel will be enriched by ECT, etc?
    Log your Injector Tip Temp once it is below the correction threshold you can log...
    How long will it take, I can't answer. It took about 10 minutes of freeway driving for me the other night...

    I would wait until you are at full operating temp before logging.. Once you have that dialed you can fine tune your cold start and idle as needed.

    If you are logging in open loop with your wideband your graphs (error log) should be using AFR error OR Eq ratio error which is commanded vs actual.
    In non PE you are commanding 1 lambda and adjusting based on your error value. In PE your commanded will be what it is and actual will be what it is to create the error
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
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  17. #17
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    If you are logging in open loop with your wideband your graphs (error log) should be using AFR error OR Eq ratio error which is commanded vs actual.
    In non PE you are commanding 1 lambda and adjusting based on your error value. In PE your commanded will be what it is and actual will be what it is to create the error
    I want to make sure I understand this... So are you basically saying that since during PE the commanded EQ Ratio changes, I don't need to worry about any skewed data during my logs, because my error log will be based on that new commanded EQ Ratio during PE?

    Thanks for the help. When I get some time I'll try logging injector tip temp. This is still all so new to me lol. But I've done many iterations of MAF logging and adjusting as is and the car actually seems to be running better (maybe it's the placebo effect...). Off idle seems more stable though.

  18. #18
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snrusnak View Post
    I want to make sure I understand this... So are you basically saying that since during PE the commanded EQ Ratio changes, I don't need to worry about any skewed data during my logs, because my error log will be based on that new commanded EQ Ratio during PE?

    Thanks for the help. When I get some time I'll try logging injector tip temp. This is still all so new to me lol. But I've done many iterations of MAF logging and adjusting as is and the car actually seems to be running better (maybe it's the placebo effect...). Off idle seems more stable though.
    That is the way I understand it...
    I've herd to keep it simple keep your commanded PE straight across the board (something safe say 1.17 EQ) dial your MAF and VE... Then go adjust your PE table to what you want (say 1.12 from 1000 RPM to 3000... Then 1.17 from 3000 to 5200 RPM... Then 1.15 from 5200 to the end)...
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
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  19. #19
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    Makes sense. How come you go to 1.12, then 1.17, then back to a lower value at higher rpm? Or was that a typo?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by snrusnak View Post
    Makes sense. How come you go to 1.12, then 1.17, then back to a lower value at higher rpm? Or was that a typo?
    Those were just numbers I pulled from my head for fine tuning your PE...
    But they kind of mirror stock PE tables and from what I understand from reading top notch dyno tunes....
    You need the most fuel right at max torque, ramping up to it, then it leans out...

    Every build combination needs different AFR at different loads to make max power when combined with optimal timing
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer