E67 LSX stalling/idle/fuel smell tuning 7.0L CTSV light clucth medium cam

[f00cts]

Hello all! i have been messing with my tune for years trying to get it to idle perfectly. Read a ton on here, tried many things, finally asking for some advice.

It has a really light flywheel/clutch (RPS carbon fiber clutch) and i think that ends up causing 80% of the problem. It also smells horrible. I had this mostly tuned out at one point but it came back when we updated the ECM software from the dealer and put the same calibration back on..
So the main things I'm trying to figure out are:
1. how to keep it from stalling randomly. This is an oddball, sometimes it works perfectly, sometimes it floats the rpms a bit and then settles, sometimes it just seems to ignore everything and flies right by the idle target and stalls like it's not even trying, and sometimes it gets real low and brings itself back up.
2. how to get rid of the fuel smell especially while cruising, i know there's always going to be some at idle but trying to minimize it here

attached is a tune, if you see anything WAY out of place let me know. it works decently, even though i changed some things around in it (you might see some really low follower step downs and things where i was trying to control the rpm decline rate , but after doing even more testing this might reference the proportional airflow table even if the proportional idle isn't being used??)
Trying to figure out the relationship between the tables in this ECM is a nightmare. There's NO PID's in the scanner that I can see which tell me what it's TRYING to do other than desired airflow, spark, things like that. Really frustrating.
It especially stalls more if the a/c is on right now.

Hoping there's something obvious i'm missing here. It's possible I simply need to add more base airflow, or the timing is off somewhere. I can upload a log after I grab one tomorrow.
Realizing how annoying E67 is..
I was also thinking about how to keep a lot of torque in reserve maybe by upping the airflow and forcing the ecm to use timing to lower the idle so there's reserve timing left over.

The funny thing is, once it is idling it won't stall easy.. I can let it out in 1st gear and it will drive itself down the road even up hill some, but as soon as it transitions off of idle it starts to have issues.

Thanks!

Engine is LSX 7.0L , LSX heads, medium cam i think it's 228/240 at 0.050 and 272/292 at 0.006 , .635 lift, 118 LSA +4
RPS BC3 clutch (super ilght), N/A right now trying to get it correct
Long tube headers, full exhaust
LS2 TB (i tried ls3 but the airflow numbers were all weird, the ecu didn't like it and idle was way crazy)

[f00cts]

Log file, something seems off, like o2 sensors look weird to me but i'm new to tuning so I'm not sure what it is supposed to look like..
It's just weird because the engine seems happy at random spots, i.e. a certain timing and airflow at one second might be fine, but 5 seconds later it's not which makes no sense. The cam isn't THAT big.
Mostly trying to prevent stalling and get rid of insane fuel smell.coldstart-idling-andshortdrive.hpl

[07GTS]

why is the stoich table almost maxed out ? dosnt look to have any scaling for injectors, try stock idle spark and idle coastdown table see if it does anything, having them all one value dosnt always work, also u cant leave torque in reserve it will then just be fighting all the time its best to get it right, your map is quite low so u should have plenty of vacuum for a decent idle, need to log more, dynamic air, idle adapt spark adv, IPW bank 1 and 2, IVT, ITT, engine torque, idle spark try around the 15 with the stock tables should be under best torque so it has room to increase spark for torque if it has to

[f00cts]

I'll have to figure out how to set up the logging of more variables. I don't think it will like 15 degrees at idle with the cam size. It actually seems like it wants more timing, the best MAP value is around 23-24 timing, but that seems excessive for idling.
Still has crazy fuel smell even though I adjusted the EOIT values using the spreadsheet to make sure it sprays after exhaust closes; it doesn't actually seem like it is or the calibration isn't actually working?
Some of the PIDs to log are simply not there in my ECU which is frustrating. I see other people on here logging things that don't exist in mine, things which would make a huge difference in helping me figure out the best values.
Do the O2 sensors look right?

[07GTS]

why is the stoich almost maxed out tho ? if that is super lean and fuel tables are adjusted to suit then it throws out the airflow/torque model, i dont like eoit going up and then down if u raise it up then at a minimum keep it there for the rest of the table, your map is low enough to show it should have a good idle as ur cam shows about -2 deg overlap so u shouldnt need too much eoit work to get right so may have other things going on, with the boundary are all 520 and the normal ect at 85-90 it should be fine at idle for that cam, also can try a re poll for supported parameters even if its already done it just encase, if the fuel is out because of the stoich table then the idle air and torque is off which could be why its not working with lower timing as it wont be able to correct for itself

[f00cts]

The tune is scaled is why stoich is doubled, and the injector size is halved.. they are 70 something lb/hr (it was over the max value the table would allow so I scaled it) and i was going to put in 100 something lb/hr after later when I add a supercharger but for now it's N/A and trying to sort it out before doing the next step.
Before the tune was scaled, had the same issue. EOIT is calculated based on the spreadsheet and PPV and IPW with valve timings and such. I know it looks weird but it's correct, it just doesn't seem like it is working. When I initially did it, the smell was less but then an update of the ECM and reflash and it's messed up again. I don't think I can scan for it either which is also frustrating.
Cam overlap is quite a bit at 0.006 which is where it should be measured at.
I know something is 'off' somewhere, although the car runs decent, it just seems to overshoot the idle sometimes and of course the fuel smell. those are the main 2 things.
Sometimes, if i goose it or let off, it goes down to ~1400 rpm, then it slows down and slowly returns to idle which is fine, i think this is the idle integral catching it ~500 rpm over idle which would be 1400 rpm.
But sometimes, it just goes right past that like it's ignoring it and goes down to 500 rpm or less and catches or stalls. And that's what i'm trying to figure out why it does that seemingly at random. There must be some condition (i.e. the throttle follower is still in use so it hasn't gone into adaptive idle mode yet) that it is hitting which makes this happen. Of course it's worse with the A/C on, and my min airflow table is > than what is needed to run it depending on timing.
It is weird that it really likes 23-25 timing instead of lower, as it's not a huge cam which could possibly require 25 or more at idle but it's not small either. This is the 2nd cam i've had in the car, same issues with both and the previous one was bigger.
I think a good portion of it is my super light clutch (carbon fiber) the whole thing + flywheel doesn't weigh much at all. I want the engine to catch itself around 1200 rpm and go slower to idle instead of zooming right past it, and it does do that most of the time.

[07GTS]

if u scale the stoich u also have to halve the IVT terms, yea ur cam has a bit at 006 but its also not the best to delay it too far as it dosnt have enough time to burn so u get the same issue, and eoit dosnt like to go up n down its not a smooth calculation for the ecu to do all the time and after 3k the overlap should be working in pulling more air into the cylinder anyway not straight out the exhaust, i have a light clutch also so there not the best to deal with and u have to make find adjustments,
pity u dont get the idle throttle torque follower table as i think it would help all u can do is read up on the virtual torque tables and try to adjust the idle areas to suit a bit better as the cam would have shifted things a bit, u could try the follower steps see if any of those helps smooth the drop in rpm, halve the integral airflow limits as a test, with light clutches u got to make alot of small changes till it all works out,
big cams dont need alot of timing in these LS engines if its having issues then its more then likely the airflow and torque causing it, disable all spark related idle correction and see how it idles that will show u how it really is and if its all over the place then all the spark is correcting for is the error in the airflow corrections, get airflow best u can first so spark has the least amount of work to do

[f00cts]

I'll try that plus messing with the follower steps and integral/prop tables and see what happens.
I've read a LOT of articles and the big cam timing is all over the place! Some people using 30 degrees and some 20.. I'm at a loss to figure out what the best timing to use is at idle. I also think the injection timing tables aren't working for some reason as I can make changes and don't notice any difference, where I did notice a big difference before by changing them (before GM updated the ECM and I rewrote the os and calibration).
Airflow was all over the place when I tried LS3 TB, and also NW102. I had to put the LS2 TB back on there to bring the airflow number back in line to what matches the tune file. This ECM seems extremely weird, even a tuner I took it to says it's weird ( I guess it's half way in between gen3 and gen4 or something? I dunno)
What timing should I be shooting for?
For EOIT, it has 46 degrees overlap at 0.006 which is what the injection timing spreadsheet someone created on the forums here suggests to use for the values. I modified the values so SOIT is after EVC at lower ranges, and then ranges where i'd be putting power in the middle of the injection timing is PPV, and then higher ranges it makes sure the EOIT-FRC is before EVC. It pulls like a gorilla at least up to around 6300-6500 rpm which the cam tops out at. Makes over 500whp totally N/A (like 520-560 depending on what type of dyno it is) and 500 tq also. Just the light flywheel i think is causing some fluctuations in the idle and the absolute worst is the fuel smell.
I literally smell like gasoline everywhere I go even if it's a 30 min drive.. It's in my clothes, hair, etc. That's like.. #1 thing I want to fix. My cam isn't insane so it shouldn't be doing this ugh.

[07GTS]

with the eoit just go back to stock and start again as u shouldnt have to go as far as u have, my old cam was 5 deg at 050 and 57 at 006 and boundary at 520 and normal ect 85 was good enough for idle then i had 580 in the 6000rpm and up cells and just populate from the 1000 to 6000 should work fine, even set boundary to all 520 and normal ect to 110 (normal rpm zeroed) and see what your trims are doing and just lower the ect by 5 or 10 and see what the fuel does if it richens up just go another 5 lower and stop when it settles, also go for a drive before u check idle fuel as u want fueling to equal out and not have any startup adders going on or rich after flash stuff,
yea yours is an in between ecu so few odd stuff with missing tables also, if u have the LS2 throttle body then the others may not work as they operate the opposite way but at least get it going with the one that works then u can change it later if u want to, the thing with timing is if u set it to the most torque then u can cause hanging idle and if it need to increase timing to add torque it dosnt work as good as ur already at max torque so usually best to find best torque then lower it like 5 or so deg, since the combustion chamber is more efficient in the LS it dosnt need the added timing like older engines stock LS7 uses like 13-14 deg at idle, also do u have cats in exhaust ? if not then u wont get rid of the smell and also keep stoich at idle going leaner causes an emission smell thats stinks also

[f00cts]

EOIT isn't far from stock. If you look I zeroed out the RPM table and modified the ECT table a bit. If you look at the stock one it sets EOIT +200 with the ECT+RPM tables, and I modifed those so it's all in the boundary table that's why you see it at 630
I'm pretty sure it's the follower/proportional/integral tables, except for the fuel smell, that one is killing me. Must be something we can do about that. I've read numerous threads on here and there is no conclusive information.

[07GTS]

ur normal ect is 80 and boundary is 560 for idle thats 70 deg later then stock, ur very delayed fuel reaching chamber at BDC for idle is too late way past EVC, if it only reaches chamber when ur at BDC it will then start to push it back out before the IVC on upstroke, always try to get it in as early as u can according to the EVC at idle so it has time to mix around and atomize, as u have little overlap id thing the exhaust may have more of an effect on it if u have not cats u will always get the smell, if u have 100 cell cats u may still get some smell, if u have 200 cell u may be able to get rid of most of it, just use E10 or ethanol if u want to get rid of the smell

[f00cts]

Yeah I have it set exactly so fuel reaches chamber when exhaust valve is closed , but it depends on the pulsewidth.. I can make some slight adjustments and see, I did this up until about 2000 rpm or so, that way even at cruising it doesn't start injecting until right before EVC.
Using the injection timing spreadsheet "INJECTOR TIMING TOOL GEN IV" which was posted on here quite a while ago.
More pulsewidth pushes SOIT back so I had to figure out a good range to be in for idling and cruising, and then WOT it changes which is why the numbers are different (the ones 2000 rpm and below i calculated for fuel reach chamber to be right after EVC, and then over 2000 rpm I did WOT calculations). I'll make a major change to it at idle and see if there's any difference but I'm guessing there might not be.
Anyone have a good layout for my ECM already made I can load in? It seems to be missing so much

[07GTS]

sure ur using the right spreadsheet as there were many adjustments through that thread ? last one i have that was good is the "INJECTOR TIMING TOOL GEN IV - Black Charts-FRCv20"

[f00cts]

sure ur using the right spreadsheet as there were many adjustments through that thread ? last one i have that was good is the "INJECTOR TIMING TOOL GEN IV - Black Charts-FRCv20"

Yeah that's it except i'm using v21
"INJECTOR TIMING TOOL GEN IV - Black Charts-FRCv21"

[jsllc]

[ECM] 2154 - Idle ETC Area Scalar should be set to 5060 for a 90mm TB. That will help some with idle. You will want to multiply 12940, 12941, 12942 by 1.07. If you do not have these they your will need to contact HPT support to get them along with all of the other missing ones. As for the idle smoothness. I have the same issue with a very light fly-wheel. You can never get it perfect. As for the timing tool unless it has been removed it still carries my name. I quit at ver17. There were modifications made after that that have math errors and/or bad assumptions. I do not know if they have been fixed.

12940 - Requested Airflow Low Barometric
12941 - Requested Airflow Medium Barometric
12942 - Requested Airflow High Barometric

https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...l=1#post531912

[07GTS]

i think there is something alse going on with the eoit we cant see also as even the stock settings should be fine for mine according to the maths but yet had to add 30-35 deg delay to get it right, thats why i use the fuel error method to find richest then u know where ur at for your setup, i have v20 marked as last good one

[f00cts]

I'm going to be messing with this again, fixing some leaks now. I also did a TON of research on EOIT. Stock LS2 TB is what the scalar is, what the car came with and a stock 2006 cts-v tune is if you want to compare it.
I wish it was something that simple.. this ECM sucks more than any other so far.
As for EOIT, I'm about to post another thread to get some concrete answers to my conclusions.

[f00cts]

OK So i'm back at it again, the thing idles beautifully when not moving.. The main problem with stalling is when I"m moving, especially turning and i have to clutch in to slow down it stalls.. Even moving 2 mph and clutching in and blipping it it wants to stall on the way back down.
However, if I stop moving , everything works wonderfully. So the question is what tables is it referencing while im moving vs not? The adaptive idle doesn't seem to work at all when im moving and i think that's part of the problem.
If it's under 1000 rpm I want it to use adaptive idle all the time regardless of if im moving or not.. It seems like I might have to crank the min airflow way up but then i get hanging and cruise control effect.. Has to be something I'm missing.
Even tried messing with the throttle follower which seems to sometimes work (slows rpm decel rate) but then at other times it drops like a rock and stalls and doesn't even try and catch it.

So.. what tables does it use while moving to idle?

[f00cts]

OK made some progress, looks like a lot has to be changed when you have a super light flywheel/clutch along with a cam. I'm still working on it but i had to raise the minimum airflow way more than it really needs to idle in order to keep it from dropping like a rock, but then i got the idle hanging and cruise control so I had to adjust the throttle follower settings to allow it to drop faster at higher rpms and much lower near idle. Weird amount of settings but I can see the relationship between the two after adjusting it so many times.

[07GTS]

does your throttle follower torque table rpm match your engine torque pid values ? if it dosnt its good to get the idle areas and below and one above to match then above that have negative so it will return to idle, that table can have a decent affect if u havnt played with it yet