Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: Knock, knock... Lean who?

  1. #1
    Potential Tuner
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    8

    Question Knock, knock... Lean who?

    Happy new year everybody!

    I'm hoping someone might be able to help... I seem to have a knock, and it is causing the VCM to go full retard. <- I think

    I've been using HP tuners for a few years, but I've never touched the VE or map tables> I basically found a tune in the repo, mod'd the shift points and vat and fan and speed settings, loaded it up, and have been happily blatting around until... I noticed that it would start lacking power, generally under cruise with a load. In particular towing a trailer at 100km/h, then a slight incline. A back off, and then power-on seemed to fix it momentarily.
    Plug in dash-command, I was able to corelate the apparent loss in power to the timing going to zero.

    Since then, I've been logging with HPT and found that the LTFT were off the scale. One thing I've always doubted is the reference on my fuel pressure regular. I had read somewhere that Commodore LS1 fuel pressure needed to reference against atmosphere, not manifold vacuum, but for some reason, I had connected it . I rectified that (golf tee well spent), and with more logging, I can see that it has improved, but still not enough (14% is better than 21%!).
    Looking back at early logs from when I built it, there are no knock retards, or maybe I didn't record it? I dunno.

    Anyway, I'm hoping that someone would be kind enough to look over my logs, and see if there is something else there that perhaps I should be looking at? Is LTFT a symptom or a cause? I don't mind having a go/learning how to tune it, manually, with, or without a wideband, but would very much appreciate a some direction.

    The vehicle is a 80-series Landcruiser with a '99 VT2 Commodore 5.7l LS1, 4L60E (hardened), LC transfer case to LC 4.11 & 32" rubber. Custom headers into twin cats and single 4". O2 sensors in [as close as possible to] original location. LC steel-wall air intake box (I'm guessing why IAT is so high always). EL Falcon twin thermos. Umm... Sandon AC.

    I've read through the stickies, and have attached hpt, hpl & cfg.210112-work-to-home.hplKrisLayout.Layout.xmlLS1_LC_210109.hpt

    I'm hoping someone can find something, or steer me in a direction.

    Cheers!

  2. #2
    Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Aubrey TX
    Posts
    129
    Assuming your o2 sensors are reading correctly you can tune your idle and crusing speeds with your LTFT readings. A wideband is better and absolutely needed for Tuning Power Enrichment...
    You need to log your MAF Hertz so you can make a log to tune your MAF using LTFT error

    This Tune is a complete shot in the dark based off of your logs and making a VE error graph.
    The VE is adjusted from your error log. Then I adjusted your MAF to be 5% richer across the board.

    Do another log with MAF hertz in the channels and post it up

    I added 2 graphs to your layout.. As stated above, put MAF Hertz in your Channels list and your error will be logged for tuning...
    To tune this correctly you need to put your tune in MAF only, Tune it. Then Fail the MAF and tune your VE... But for now just try my tune and log the results
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by dhoagland; 01-12-2021 at 11:38 AM. Reason: Added Layout
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  3. #3
    Potential Tuner
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    8
    Thanks dhoagland!
    I have uploaded your tune and done another run.
    I can see that generally, the LTFT table is now a little less lean, but there's still a lot of knock retard.
    Should I keep multiplying over the VE table? and the MAF table? to get it all closer still? Or would you recommend setting to MAP or MAF only?
    Cheers for your help!
    210114-Home-to-work.hpl
    Last edited by Bigkrisso; 01-13-2021 at 07:39 PM. Reason: added attachment

  4. #4
    Potential Tuner
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    8
    OK, so I've done a few more trips, and copied the charts, paste special, %-half, after each, and the trims are looking a lot better. Still some KR.
    On this latest log, interesting at 16:47:58, after a short bout of 6deg KR, and a decrease in TPS, it goes into open loop...
    Anywho, any ideas what I should do with it now?
    LS1_LC_210113-dhoagland.5.hpt210119-work-to-home.hpl

  5. #5
    Potential Tuner
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    8
    I put the racecar on the trailer and dragged it to the track last night. What a horrible powerless experience that was... there was absolutely no torque at low engine speed, and had to ring it's neck to get it to go.
    Any ideas?
    210120-Home-to-track.hpl

  6. #6
    Potential Tuner
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    8
    Today, I set the tune to MAF only (I think (I set ECM3003-dynamic airflow high RPM disable to 200)).
    It drove quite well, but still went into KR and started to feel limp after the IAT went up.
    Looking at the MAF LTST Err CL table, it's pretty good?
    210121-work-to-home-MAFonly.hpl
    LS1_LC_210121-dhoagland.5.MAFonly.hpt

  7. #7
    Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Aubrey TX
    Posts
    129
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigkrisso View Post
    Today, I set the tune to MAF only (I think (I set ECM3003-dynamic airflow high RPM disable to 200)).
    It drove quite well, but still went into KR and started to feel limp after the IAT went up.
    Looking at the MAF LTST Err CL table, it's pretty good?
    210121-work-to-home-MAFonly.hpl
    LS1_LC_210121-dhoagland.5.MAFonly.hpt
    Yes
    From your log the MAF error looks pretty good. And yes, you could multiply by percent half to continue dialing in the MAF, then move to MAF fail and tune the VE table, your on the right track.
    See if this makes any difference. I reduced the timing slightly in the KR areas and bumped the fuel by 1%. Is there anyway you can isolate that air box to get IAT's down?

    Also is there anything loose (rattling) or possibly something hitting on the frame causing a false knock?
    What Octane fuel are you running? If its low try buying a tank of high octane and see if the knock goes away.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  8. #8
    Potential Tuner
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    8
    Thanks for your advice. I'm curious, why did you change the high octane spark, and not low octane spark?

    Quote Originally Posted by dhoagland View Post
    Is there anyway you can isolate that air box to get IAT's down?
    I think that's a good lead. I can't comprehend that that's actually the IAT, so, I'll try a new sensor, and move it around a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by dhoagland View Post
    Also is there anything loose (rattling) or possibly something hitting on the frame causing a false knock?
    Possibly. I used Advanced Adapters engine mounts, and it does sometimes sound like its hitting on the frame. Although, I've tried and can't isolate where it's potentially hitting.

    Quote Originally Posted by dhoagland View Post
    Yes
    What Octane fuel are you running? If its low try buying a tank of high octane and see if the knock goes away.
    I've been running 91. Around here, we have the choice of 91, 95 and 98. I'll try a full tank of 98 next week.

  9. #9
    Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Aubrey TX
    Posts
    129
    From what I understand you usually run off of high octane table unless you have massive KR...
    I did that kind of as a first step to see if it will go away...

    The areas where I reduced the timing, the low octane table is still considerably lower than the high...
    So it is a happy medium
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  10. #10
    Potential Tuner
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    8
    Here's some logs with your tune... with 98 octane...

    210128a-track-to-home.hpl
    210128b-around-to-home.hpl
    210128c-around-to-home.hpl

    I've ordered a new IAT sensor, and new O2 lambda sensors, and will try and fit them at the weekend.

    Do you think it could be dodgy knock sensors? or interference in the knock sensor wiring? Or a coil pack issue? I note that when it is cold(er), it feels and runs great, and then once it's been running a while, and the engine bay temp is high, it goes limp.

    Cheers again for your continued assistance!

  11. #11
    Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Aubrey TX
    Posts
    129
    Anything is possible, but looking at these last logs the KR is getting less (except when you are towing)...
    I'm thinking with more MAF / VVE tuning it will be almost gone..

    On your next logs add
    Commanded AFR
    Fuel pressure (if its available)
    Current gear
    Last edited by dhoagland; 3 Weeks Ago at 02:28 PM. Reason: Added Comment
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  12. #12
    Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Aubrey TX
    Posts
    129
    After you change your sensors if it doesn't really change anything try this one...
    It has a little more fueling in MAF and VE
    I shifted the whole timing table up by one row
    Attached Files Attached Files
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  13. #13
    Potential Tuner
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    8
    Good news... I think...
    Last week, I was looking at the harmonic balancer, and the belt running, and noticed a bit of a wobble. On closer inspection, the bolt was missing!
    So, today, we replaced the O2 sensors, the balancer, the bolt, and gave it a thorough service.
    Attached is the drive home log. and the tune I uploaded.
    210202-shop-to-home.hpl
    LS1_LC_210128-dhoagland.6.hpt
    You can see that there is a lot less KR (most of it in the first couple of minutes), and the KLR is at 1.0 by the end
    We did find a bit more noise in the ancillary circuit, including the bearing on the tensioner we recently replaced
    The acceleration is still a bit surgy, so I'm still not happy with the tune, but I am confident that we eliminated most of the knock...
    Now, to keep on this tune...
    Do you recommend going back to MAF only, and doing some more runs?
    Or MAFless by disconnecting the MAF?
    Cheers!!

  14. #14
    Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Aubrey TX
    Posts
    129
    Might not hurt to do another run through the MAF, but its looking pretty good...
    Then definitely move to the VE. You mention unplugging the MAF sensor to fail it, but if it has the Intake air temp sensor incorportaed in it that will mess things up.
    So this is your tune with the MAF failed. The codes are set to first error so you will know that the MAF has failed and your in SD mode.
    Also note that since the MAF has failed you will be reading from your low Octane table, So I copied your high table to the low, minus 2 degrees across the board. This is only for tuning, when going back to your tune remember to change these back...
    Also when your MAF is failed you will be reading from your secondary VE table... You will make your error log based on that, get it dialed in, then paste it into your primary (aligning the proper MAP cells) then interpolate between the missing cells for your final tune..
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by dhoagland; 3 Weeks Ago at 02:55 PM.
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer