Tbss ls2 swap into hummer h3 ...traction/stabilitrak help

[Jimmy P]

I just finished installing an e67 2007 trailblazer ss 6.0 ls2 into a 2006 Hummer H3 (i5) and am getting a P0856 traction control input signal code with stabilitrak and traction control messages in the dic display. These have displayed since first startup.

1. I am using the base e67 2007 tbss cal with vats removed and tire/gear updates. Requested and delivered torque wires are routed to and from the ecm/brake module accordingly.

2. The 2008 h3 came with the 5.3 with e67. I know of at least one other person that has used the e67 2008 hummer h3 base cal in a 5.3 swap into 2006 hummer (i5) and gotten traction control/stabilitrak to work. So I believe the e67 should be capable of making this work.

3. I am looking for some advice to root cause what is causing the issue. I am assuming the communication between the tbss brake module and ecm must somehow be different than the h3 brake module and ecm?

I can watch delivered torque and requested torque but I am not exactly sure what to look for.

The service manuals for both vehicles describe the operation of the requested/delivered torque the same way for stabilitrak and traction control. Maybe they operate the same way but the actual torque capabilities of the engine is causing the issue?


Thanks in advance

Here are the tcs calibration differences between the 5.3 hummer h3 and the tbss in hptuners

20210119_132757.jpg

[blindsquirrel]

E67 is a Gen4, one subforum down from here.

[Jimmy P]

Thanks...my mistake, if a moderator sees this can you please move it to the gen iv forum? I thought I was posting in a general gm v8 tuning forum.

[blindsquirrel]

There is likely something different between TBSS operating system and H3 operating system causing comm failure with the EBCM - it's the code in the ECM buried way down deep in the bits not normally messed with for tuning, not the ECM hardware. If the service number of your existing E67 is compatible with what's called for for a '08 H3, I think the easiest solution would be to scrounge up a valid VIN for an '08 and have your existing ECM dealer-flashed to a stock '08 file, then copy over the tuning stuff that's different from the 6.0L file.

There are two '08 H3 5.3L stock files in the repository you can use to harvest a VIN from. (note: DO NOT try to use HP Tuners to write-entire a file from a different vehicle - there are 8 segments in the ECM, HPT only writes 6 of them)

[Jimmy P]

I was told I would not be able to swap the 6.0 engine specifics onto the 5.3 alpha hummer base cal specifically with an e67 controller, hense the reason I tried to use the tbss base cal. Is it possible? Am I opening another can of worms? This would also help with my 4wd low specific tables that seem to be non existent in tbss land.

I have the h3 base cal also, I added the tcs hp tuner variable differences above in my first post.. It isn't clear what those do exactly but I might copy them to see if they help.

[ScarabEpic22]

Easiest thing to do will be to use a factory Colorado 5.3 V8 ECM and OS, as blindsquirrel said, you HAVE to use TDS/SPS to flash the entire ECM. HPT only flashes the main CPU, not the slave CPU OS+calibration so you'll have issues.

The 5.3L TB may have the 4WD Low stuff in that calibration, but honestly GM made a factory configuration so the best bet is to use it.

I cant remember if GM did the V8 Colorado in 08 or 09, the E67s have different service numbers so make sure to get the correct one. I'd suggest an 09 or 10-12 (different service numbers) as they'll have the larger IFR table.

[Jimmy P]

It makes sense to start with the hummer h3 5.3 os and ecm (only vehicle with a 4:1 t case available) but it is not clear how I would get the 6.0 specific calibrations to overwrite the 5.3 specifics. I was told I couldn't do segment swaps on the e67s but I am still not sure how segment swaps would work here?

For the p0856 code the tbss service manual says the requested torque signal should be between 25% and 95%. I checked the voltage and it is right at 5v from the pcm.

In hptuners I see two outputs for tcs torque. On startup the "Traction control torque" is 0% and "traction control desired torque" is 99.2%. What does that tell me?

If someone out there has a stockish tbss or hummer h3 can you tell me what those values are for you?

[blindsquirrel]

It makes sense to start with the hummer h3 5.3 os and ecm (only vehicle with a 4:1 t case available) but it is not clear how I would get the 6.0 specific calibrations to overwrite the 5.3 specifics. I was told I couldn't do segment swaps on the e67s but I am still not sure how segment swaps would work here?

For the p0856 code the tbss service manual says the requested torque signal should be between 25% and 95%. I checked the voltage and it is right at 5v from the pcm.

In hptuners I see two outputs for tcs torque. On startup the "Traction control torque" is 0% and "traction control desired torque" is 99.2%. What does that tell me?

If someone out there has a stockish tbss or hummer h3 can you tell me what those values are for you?

You have an issue that is caused by the underlying operating system and the communications protocol it uses to talk to the EBCM, it is not a matter of having the wrong values in the little editable, visible boxes and if you could just find the right numbers to put in the little boxes everything would work yay!

2006 H3 3.5L and 2008 H3 5.3L use the exact same EBCM (25939761). It is a completely different design/family/architecture than the 2008 TBSS EBCM (20817362/20817363). They speak different languages. Which EBCM language the E67 speaks is determined by what operating system it is programmed with.

What you need to do:
Get your ECM flashed at a dealer, or by someone with tools that can flash using GM SPS, using a real VIN from a 2008 H3. (5GTEN13L488105438)
Connect with HPT, read&save the file from the newly-programmed ECM
Open the new '08 H3 file, click 'Open Compare File', load the old TBSS file
Click Compare, then View Comparison Log

screenshot.20-01-2021 01.04.15.png

'Copy All Differences' will copy EVERYTHING that is different. 'Copy Selected Differences' will only copy the stuff in the thing you right-clicked on. There are some things that will not copy over directly and will require hand-tweaking; for instance the IAT axis is different between the two files, but the values in the cells is the same - this will require finding tables like that and copying the axis from the compare file into the working file.

You cannot use the segment swapper between files with different operating systems, that's not what you need here anyway.

[Jimmy P]

Thanks blindsquirrel I see what you are saying and will probably start a parallel path with one of my spare ecms if they match the 08 hummer or track down a new one. I haven't approached my local dealer about something like this before....is there and online source that does it?

I would like to understand more about the language or architecture differences between the h3 and tbss vehicle platform/ebcms though. They both send a 5v pwm signal that represents a percentage of torque back to the ecm....do you have any insight on how those might be so different that they won't work together regardless of the changes that can be made in the visible boxes in hp tuners? Would one scale from max to min torque and the other scales from min to max torque request or something crazy like that?

[blindsquirrel]

It's not the data sent between ECM & EBCM that's different, it's the structure of the carrier signal which carries that data. It's deeper than the tune parameters we have access to, it's in the fundamental way the ECM communicates. They are different platforms. They speak different languages.

There's a similar issue with pre-2009.5 E38s and post-2009.5 E38s and TCMs. An early E38 OS is only able to communicate with an early TCM OS, a late E38 can only communicate with a late TCM OS. Copying all the editable data from one to the other won't fix a mismatch, you have to change the operating systems to make them speak the same language.

Be aware you may also need to update the 2006 EBCM with a matching 2008 calibration. Even though they both call out the same EBCM hardware, TIS2Web shows different calibrations - 25839739 for '06 3.5L, 25940482 for '08 5.3L. GM does not give any type of info about the underlying guts of their calibrations and how to make mismatched components play nice together. This is stuff a dealership tech would never ever encounter so the service info doesn't need to consider it.

[TheMechanic]

You have an issue that is caused by the underlying operating system and the communications protocol it uses to talk to the EBCM, it is not a matter of having the wrong values in the little editable, visible boxes and if you could just find the right numbers to put in the little boxes everything would work yay!

2006 H3 3.5L and 2008 H3 5.3L use the exact same EBCM (25939761). It is a completely different design/family/architecture than the 2008 TBSS EBCM (20817362/20817363). They speak different languages. Which EBCM language the E67 speaks is determined by what operating system it is programmed with.

What you need to do:
Get your ECM flashed at a dealer, or by someone with tools that can flash using GM SPS, using a real VIN from a 2008 H3. (5GTEN13L488105438)
Connect with HPT, read&save the file from the newly-programmed ECM
Open the new '08 H3 file, click 'Open Compare File', load the old TBSS file
Click Compare, then View Comparison Log

screenshot.20-01-2021 01.04.15.png

'Copy All Differences' will copy EVERYTHING that is different. 'Copy Selected Differences' will only copy the stuff in the thing you right-clicked on. There are some things that will not copy over directly and will require hand-tweaking; for instance the IAT axis is different between the two files, but the values in the cells is the same - this will require finding tables like that and copying the axis from the compare file into the working file.

You cannot use the segment swapper between files with different operating systems, that's not what you need here anyway.

Great tip!! Thank you.

[TheMechanic]

Thanks blindsquirrel I see what you are saying and will probably start a parallel path with one of my spare ecms if they match the 08 hummer or track down a new one. I haven't approached my local dealer about something like this before....is there and online source that does it?

I would like to understand more about the language or architecture differences between the h3 and tbss vehicle platform/ebcms though. They both send a 5v pwm signal that represents a percentage of torque back to the ecm....do you have any insight on how those might be so different that they won't work together regardless of the changes that can be made in the visible boxes in hp tuners? Would one scale from max to min torque and the other scales from min to max torque request or something crazy like that?

If I can remember from one of my GM schools it is like the difference between window 98 and window 10. Sometimes GM will jump from windows 10 to Linux. That is a comparison not the actual OS. Modules don't need to translate so humans can understand.

[Jimmy P]

It's not the data sent between ECM & EBCM that's different, it's the structure of the carrier signal which carries that data. It's deeper than the tune parameters we have access to, it's in the fundamental way the ECM communicates. They are different platforms. They speak different languages.

There's a similar issue with pre-2009.5 E38s and post-2009.5 E38s and TCMs. An early E38 OS is only able to communicate with an early TCM OS, a late E38 can only communicate with a late TCM OS. Copying all the editable data from one to the other won't fix a mismatch, you have to change the operating systems to make them speak the same language.

Be aware you may also need to update the 2006 EBCM with a matching 2008 calibration. Even though they both call out the same EBCM hardware, TIS2Web shows different calibrations - 25839739 for '06 3.5L, 25940482 for '08 5.3L. GM does not give any type of info about the underlying guts of their calibrations and how to make mismatched components play nice together. This is stuff a dealership tech would never ever encounter so the service info doesn't need to consider it.

Ok thanks I knew that things get tricky when it comes to gmlan or can communications like you mention on tcm to ecm communications but thought this torque signal was more simple. I wasn't expecting it to work perfectly but at least in the most basic form. I will play around with what I can see first as a last ditch effort to get it working but will also pursue the h3 base cal/os. I am just nervous that using that method will miss something else between the 5.3 and 6.0 that I cannot "see".

Thanks for the heads up on the ebcm differences, I hadn't thought to check it yet, only the physical part numbers.

[blindsquirrel]

The only differences between the 2008 LS2 and 2008 LH8 are addressable in the tune. The EBCM comms issue is only addressable by using the correct ECM operating system. I don't know how else to explain it. It's like trying to get a USB thumbdrive to connect through an old DB9 serial port. It's not going to happen by fiddling with the device properties settings. They are speaking different languages.

[ScarabEpic22]

5.3 vs 6.0 is dead simple to adjust for. The different CAN/VPW protocol and comms is not, that's baked into the OS. So, pick the piece you can't adjust and start with that as the base (comms), then tackle the piece you can adjust (engine tuning).

You should be good once you get the ECM with the correct Colorado OS, blindsquirrel had a good point that updating the EBCM calibration may also be needed. Basically get your truck to "think" it's now running all MY 08 stuff. Lots of places can bench flash your ECM, fewer can do the EBCM. Ideally having someone local with a J2534 cable do it would be easiest, the dealer may/may not be willing to do it.

[Jimmy P]

The local dealer said $130 to reprogram any computer which seems crazy. I can call around to see if any of the independent shops can do it on the bench cheaper for me.

I can get a vin flashed e67 controller for hummer h3 5.3 on ebay for $120 so I will probably go that route and then spend another $100 to license it and try the copy and replace method. I am not sure which tcm cal to use.....tbss or h3?


Back to the general pwm requested signal from the ebcm topic. Maybe you guys can help me understand it better. The ebcm to ecm and vice versa communication is pwm and should represent something like a 10 to 95% of total torque value using a varying 5v or 12 v signal. What is the underlying "structure of the carrier signal" mean when it comes to a pwm signal? I know serial data and can signals are more complicated and simply hooking the wires together won't work but how is the pwm signal more complicated? Mr squirrel I know you are pounding your head on the table but I appreciate your input so far, just trying to wrap my head around what is going on in there.

[ScarabEpic22]

Check the seller will actually use TDS and flash the ECM, not simply change the VIN. If they do the latter, you won't have the correct main and slave OS' in the ECM. Make sure it's the correct p/n ECM for the 08 OS or you'll have issues.

The dealer probably charges a flat rate of 1hr of labor for flashing, so $130 unfortunately sounds about right.

Use an 08 5.3 Colorado VIN as the base for the ECM and TCM, keep them factory matched.

[Jimmy P]

Check the seller will actually use TDS and flash the ECM, not simply change the VIN. If they do the latter, you won't have the correct main and slave OS' in the ECM. Make sure it's the correct p/n ECM for the 08 OS or you'll have issues.

The dealer probably charges a flat rate of 1hr of labor for flashing, so $130 unfortunately sounds about right.

Use an 08 5.3 Colorado VIN as the base for the ECM and TCM, keep them factory matched.

Thanks Erik, would the factory 08 hummer 5.3 or colorado tcm tune operate the tbss 4l70e? I thought there were some differences between the 4l60 and 4l70 when it comes to hardware that impacts the tune?

[ScarabEpic22]

Thanks Erik, would the factory 08 hummer 5.3 or colorado tcm tune operate the tbss 4l70e? I thought there were some differences between the 4l60 and 4l70 when it comes to hardware that impacts the tune?

Yes. Worst case the Colorado isn't looking for the ISS signal the 70E's outputting and carries on. The 60E family is pretty simple, the only time you can get hung up is on 09+ transmissions where GM removed the external MLPS as they changed the wiring to the transmission.

I don't have an 08 Colorado file, I compared the 09 TBSS and Colorado files I have (factory flashes, same OS for ECM and TCM), they both have ISS fitted and enabled (this may be an 09+ thing again). There are changes to Shift speed, shift pressure, TCC, speedo outputs, and a few others which are just a copy/paste and go. There is a difference for the OSS location config, the Colorado file has After 4wd t-case 'enabled' where TBSS has just After gearbox 'enabled'.

[Jimmy P]

Just a small update in case anyone is searching through threads years from now and comes across this.. I played around with the tcs settings and used a combination of 08 hummer and 07 tbss settings and after some driving, doing a crank relearn and some ignition cycles the p0856 dtc went away for the first time. I am still seeing the service traction and stabilitrac message. I know the p0856 sets a c0240 code on the vehicle side based on the service manual. Should hptuners be able to "see" this body side code if it is in the background? Can it be reset by hp tuners or would that need a tech 2? Right now, no dtcs show up at all to explain the service traction message.

Now I realize this doesn't mean my traction control is working or going to but at least I seem to have been able to do something that impacted the dtc on the engine side.