Noob questions, fuelling

[PhoB]

Hello, im coming here from different platforms. So im sorry if sound ignorant, but throught search i did not find answers. Have a Mustang 2012 V6 to play with.

1. how is possible to finetune fuel trims? Only by manipulating MAF curve or Fuel mass multipliers or the speed density calculator or?
2. if i install return style fuel system, with pressure referenced regulator, may i disable Pressure compensation in Fuel section of editor and set no error reported on all DTC around Fuel pump module?
3. do someone have experience, how much power/flow can stock or GT500 maf can see before peaks out in 3" tube(73mm ID) blow throught?

[Ranger Coyote]

When ford built the engine you use, they did quite a bit of flow bench testing etc and the MAF curve they give you is pretty close to ideal unless you have changed something.

2. Yes, disable pressure compensation, also under airflow, general, set the multiplier to 0(it's probably .49 right now) make sure you hook the vac hose to the manifold on the passenger side where there are two aux ports that have a plug in them. Set your inferred rail pressure to whatever the delta is on your regulator(mine is 55psi vac hose unplugged) so you set it to 55 in the table in all cells. Make sure you have used injector data provided by the mfg. I had to disable one code for fuel pump control when I went to return style, I can't remember which but if you ask I'll look.

3. Mine has the roush 727 MAF and I had to adjust the scale of my table to accomodate the 75mm pulley, you have to edit the axis values and not just what you are given.. Also under engine diag you have to set your max RPM and MAF period

Post up what you have and what you are trying to do and the HPT community will be all over it like covid on a mask!

[PhoB]

Thank you.

1. understand that, but what people changing, when something is changed and need finetuning? The link for mustang V6 HPT guide of masterenginetuner is not working, if there was something.
2. nice, thank you
3. i see 660 g/sec in GT500 as maximum, i think its in 4" pipe, so in 3" pipe it will be roughly 60-70% less, if blowtrough instalation will not change something. Therefore im asking.

Car arrived already procharged, but then thing go crazy a now its twin turbo build. And as it twin turbo, maf must be in boost pipe before throttle and its complicated make it 4" atleast. And also are 1000cc injectors, alreaddy installed and calibrated in prevousion setup (where was stock maf mounted in Intercooler side, which i dont realy understand, as im from euro tuning, where maf shape and diameter is critical). Now there is also mentioned return stly fuel system installed, so simply too many variation to just simply fix all by manipulating MAF curve. But i have no other way to go right now, bit shot in the dark first.

[PhoB]

Hi, i get somewhere. Enclosing datalog, i have two issue. During WOT , around 5500rpm fuelling switching to lean and for a second is it lean till STFT correct it. It goes from say -10% to +20% correction , see log. Bending Maf curve doesnt help. Tried bigger maf housing+rescalling, doesnt have influence. Fuel pressure is stable. Its 600-700bhp level now.
Did not find any correction tables, even speed density, to see anything connected to 5500rpm.
Second issue, is idle, where STFT are too slow but also too wild, it oscilate +-28% , tried lower some transport delay, but seem do not have much influence(after start, until STFT
start, engine run smooth(slightly rich) ). When i adjust fuelling to be more rich, means -28% correction did not cross lambda 1.0 , it aslo runs smooth, just after while it throw O2 closed loop fault.

Any ideas?

dc55.hpl

[Ranger Coyote]

Can you post your tune file? What injectors are you using? Is your regulator vac/boost referenced off the intake manifold or before the throttle body? If I assume right, yours is modified to return style, correct?
noboost.jpg

Remember atmosphere is like 14.67 or something so you are only calculating 1 psi of boost

[PhoB]

Yes, thank you, i saw it already (108kpa in my setup), tried to rise max air chrage load(which did nothing), and thanks to your comment, seeing maximum calc MAP is 31.88inHG which is exactly 108kpa. So i will rise it in next revision, what changes can i expect?

Fuel reg is referenced after throttle. Its set 58psi(with zero vacuum). Injectors are ID1300x , so virtually 1500cc on that pressure, fuel pumps are twin 450lph walbro. Its running pump fuel in that log. WMI to come.

2012_mustangV6_TwinturboMaf35inch_03.hpt

EDIT: airload is getting close to peak a bit before target boost, so it reads to low ignition. Is airload connected to map calc value?

[Ranger Coyote]

Fuel will be real far off, don't go wot until I get a chance to look at it better

[Ranger Coyote]

Your injector settings are wrong, your maf is ... well here is a picture:
trashmaf.jpg

[Ranger Coyote]

#1 In speed density you need to put your expected maximum boost in the MAP Max Delta above BP table.
#2 Set your Load at WOT table to something more realistic
#3 Max Aircharge Load set to 1.9
#4 Calc MAP(you fixed already)
#5 Airflow - General - Cylair WOT Multiplier - Set to 1.75
#6 Cylair Max Multiplier set to 0.95
#7 Desired Air Mass Max Load - Set to 1.75
#8 Set your MAF back to stock
#9 Get the injector data for either ID1300 or ID1300x2 from the ford info sheet ID provides
#10 See if it starts and idles --- DO NOT -- go wot until you check if the fuel is good

[Ranger Coyote]

Actually you said you had some weird GT500 maf... Just put whatever is the closest to stock data you have for your MAF

[Ranger Coyote]

The Map Max Delta thing might be confusing to you, you have to edit the axis too... Remember this is your pressure above barometric pressure. I just made up some numbers here:
madeup.jpg

[PhoB]

Wow, thanks again for your support.
Maf is now stock sensor, because we found supplied GT500 was from older model, the voltage ouput type. Stock sensor is now mounted in 3,5" metal pipe , blowthrougt just before throttle body.
Cylair values is from prevousion supercharger tune(not mine), i do not know what it its, so i not touch them.
Will do changes and report tommorow

[rryanfla]

Solid injector data, the dial maf.

[Ranger Coyote]

Ryan is right... I maybe wasn't clear, but get the ID1300x data, put it in exactly (might have to change units by clicking them in the editor to match the sheet) and don't touch it again. I will be just as excited as you when we get it to run right

[PhoB]

So, when i fill injectors data (for 58psi) and using factory maf curve , its very lean. So i start to mutliply MAF curve till was roughtly ok(tipin was still very lean), but then flow numbers are too high, so when WOT at 2000rpm, it shows 650nm, goes rich, ignition advance is taken from very high row=means it very low, and calculated boost climbs almost immediately to maximum value even its 0.2bar in engine in real. So i revert back to my mixed settings (injector adjusted as smaller and lower MAF curve).
Problem at 5500 with lean spike dissapier with more highher air mass values(im not exatly sure, changes several of them makes airload to go over 2 instead up to 1.6 before). But very same lean spike, happen(happened before also) at 6500rpm, but its only 0.5afr so i can live with it.
Enclosing WOT log and actual tune, 1.6bar boost, 800bhp. Doesnt bother much low load areas to finetune MAF curve.

I still need to solve idle surge due STFT. You can see it in log.

2012_mustangV6_TwinturboMaf35inch_03rework_07.hpt
07_hiboost.hpl

[PhoB]

And two questions:

1. the load axis on spark tables, its is referenced in log as "air load" or "desired load" ? As at wot none of them seem not exactly specifies which ignition advance will be used. I have it locked in Optimum power maps, removed some other corrections....and "timing advance SAE" follows "borderline knock" , but often its not the value in bordeline knock map i set...

2. is it important to rescale Predicted throttle angle and Effective area? Engine has 73mm BBK throttle instead stock(assuming stock is 68mm = so now its cca 15% larger). Again car arrived with it, and it wasnt edited in prevousion tune. I tried to multiply curve and map, but i feels some jerking part throttle so i reverted back. But im not sure if this was the issue.

[Ranger Coyote]

You have to use the correct injector settings and fix your tune around that. We really only have injectors as known good data. Put back the correct injector settings/stockish maf. Temporary(testing and log only- NO WOT) set Cylair Filter disabled, and Cylair Anticipation disable. I think we are fighting your speed density quadratics and this will give us a direction... Don't go drive it, just idle, maybe hold throttle at 1500 RPM for 5 seconds... Please don't go WOT anymore, your tune is so far off it's scary. Post the results so I can see where we are

[Ranger Coyote]

And two questions:

1. the load axis on spark tables, its is referenced in log as "air load" or "desired load" ? As at wot none of them seem not exactly specifies which ignition advance will be used. I have it locked in Optimum power maps, removed some other corrections....and "timing advance SAE" follows "borderline knock" , but often its not the value in bordeline knock map i set...

2. is it important to rescale Predicted throttle angle and Effective area? Engine has 73mm BBK throttle instead stock(assuming stock is 68mm = so now its cca 15% larger). Again car arrived with it, and it wasnt edited in prevousion tune. I tried to multiply curve and map, but i feels some jerking part throttle so i reverted back. But im not sure if this was the issue.

You will have to address Predicted throttle angle, but we are not that far yet... We need to get it running with correct injector settings first... Adjust your air model to work with correctly programmed injectors...

[PhoB]

ID1300x at 58psi, have noted flow roughtly 1550cc/min, which is 0,0258400 kg/sec and that i filled into tune (im correct?). Similar with voltage correction. Pressure compensation are numbt as its vac referenced.
Engine si twin turbo so i cannot use OEM maf, to have one critical part 100%correct, unfortunately, i must changing both to reach the target.
And i also think that too wild changes (ie 5x bigger injectors on non factory pressure regulation) is not fit into teoretical calculations to have precise result, isnt?

[Ranger Coyote]

I promise Injector Dynamics tested your injectors and at 58PSI what that sheet says is really close to correct.