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Thread: Stock 2019 Mustang GT, file and log.

  1. #1
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    Stock 2019 Mustang GT, file and log.

    Nothing new just posting my stock file and a log with a 5th gear WOT pull. car has just under 10k miles, nothing wrong, but may be due for some basic maintenance. 92 ron+mon/2 octane. Discuss what you see and how you would go about improving if you wish, I haven't even licensed the file yet to make changes.

    6.hpl

    Marks stock 2019 GT.hpt

    Seems like MP23 should have been 10 IVO and 20 EVC.

    MP21,24,25 EVC should have been 20 as well.
    Last edited by murfie; 04-12-2021 at 03:17 AM.

  2. #2
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    Thanks!

  3. #3
    It looks like the valves are doing a pretty good job of following the optimum power valve settings.

    valves.jpg

    If you want to split hairs you could raise the low slope and high slope a tad...

    If it was my car, I would take 2% fuel out and add 10% to all the forward gear shift pressures and 10% to torque reduction tables...

    It's hard to fix what aint broke!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger Coyote View Post
    It looks like the valves are doing a pretty good job of following the optimum power valve settings.

    valves.jpg

    If you want to split hairs you could raise the low slope and high slope a tad...

    If it was my car, I would take 2% fuel out and add 10% to all the forward gear shift pressures and 10% to torque reduction tables...

    It's hard to fix what aint broke!
    I'd like to beef up my friend's 2018 GT in Drive since he doesn't really like to switch modes. In Drag mode it slams gears with the stock tune (Murfie you should try this), it's crazy! I'm guessing this is Alternate 2? There's only 3 tables but several modes, anyone know what corresponds to what?

    Also is the Stroke Pressure Adder the right place for pressures? Same thing there's base and alternate but nothing about which mode. I'm sure Base covers drive but what else? Alternate?
    Knock Retard is the reduction or prevention of knock by lowering ignition timing:

    (+) Adding Knock Retard = Reducing Timing. PCM is seeing knock.
    (--) Lowering Knock Retard = Increasing Timing. PCM isn't seeing knock.
    __________________________________________________ ________

    2014 Mustang GT Premium. VMP Gen2R Supercharged with an FTI 3000rpm Converter. JLT, BMR, Steeda, Viking, etc.
    Don't fix it if it ain't broken | Maximum effort gets maximum results

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbolt22 View Post
    There's only 3 tables but several modes, anyone know what corresponds to what?
    Look under Transmission->General->Shift characteristics->Shift Character. 0 is not aggressive, 1 is more aggressive, and 2 is most aggressive. That table shows which modes use which shift character. I think 0 is "normal", 1 is "alternate 1", and 2 is "alternate 2".

  6. #6
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    murfie, interesting log. Just a couple of thoughts....

    - The spark timing seems a little low at high rpm. I could be wrong but I thought my car when stock on 93 was able to maintain about 27 up top. You got almost 8 deg of knock advance at 4500 rpm, but then it started getting some knock response and brought the knock advance down to 1. You were running borderline spark source all the way, so it didn't hit any other timing limit.
    - If it were me, and I were running 92 all the time, I would definitely add several degrees of timing to the borderline tables at 3000-5000 rpm. This would improve WOT torque because you wouldn't have to wait for the knock advance to ramp the timing up. It took it 1500 rpm and over 4 seconds to get the 8 deg of knock advance in there.
    - Air load peaks at .992 at 5700 rpm. That's simply amazing to me that these stock engines can achieve that naturally aspirated.
    - You went into exhaust temp control at 7200 rpm, which richened up the A/F ratio.
    - Some have found a little power by raising GDI pressure. I think 3000 is pretty safe and helps atomization a tiny amount.
    - I love how the engine torque tracks the ETC torque request very closely with an offset. The stock calibration is very close.

  7. #7
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    I tried a few shifting logs, but no traction with these stock 235 pzero nero junk tires. Dealer didn't give me the key to the lug nut locks.

    My 15 had a very similar timing trend where middle of the pull it hit a wall and it all came back out. It was just 2-3* more than this car.
    I'm going to compare 87 octane to 92, to see how different the stock calibration handles them. I've seen our gas stations give out 87 when 92 was empty. Single hose dispenser pumps are BS.

  8. #8
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    I removed some channels and added some trans channels. I reset KAM and transmission adaptive tables. I did three pulls from 2nd through the gears. first was normal, second track(sport with traction control off for you), and third was drag mode with manually turning advanced trac off. I was trying to use up the last of the 92 I had in the tank. you can see the map and character used by each from two channels I added. The transmission seems much smoother with its adaptive reset.

    Tank is full of 87, and 20 miles so far it still seems happy. I'm going to drive it another 80-100 just to make sure there wasn't some left in the system and thats what I'm seeing. Then take another 5th gear pull log tomorrow. We will see the difference between regular and premium, or that I got a junk tank of 92 lol.

    IDK if I would want a 1>3, 2>4, 3>5 skip shift of normal mode to have the drag mode shift character.
    I can see making the sport shift map more aggressive with its down shifts, and maybe modifying the coast down MAP so it actually does something with out brake/ accelerator input when you move the shift lever. I feel like it thinks I did it on accident as it is now. Making sport mode have drag mode character shifts, but I would have too see if it was too aggressive, sometimes mid corner you don't want a hard shift to upset the car.

    7.hpl


    on 92 I dont think its knock, I think I'm reaching MP 20,21, 24 MBT. the advance gets pulled out because it is not needed. the source just isn't saying base/MBT, but i'm showing right at the amount of advance it takes to get to MBT.

    24

    Not knock, reaching MBT.PNG

    21

    MP21 advance needed to reach MBT.PNG

    20

    MP20 advanced needed to reach MBT.PNG

    Heres MP 23 where timing starts going back in.

    MP23 advance needed to reach MBT.PNG

    I didn't factor in corrections, where borderline would have been higher and MBT lower, making them even closer.

    Chart showing the MP weights and RPM the spark gets pulled out. MBT is not high on these high compression engines, I don't think adding more is needed, 24 and dropping to 21 at the high RPM is normal and about all a stock car is going to see. Under 4K and relying less on the advance could definitely help, if it doesnt cause tipin issues.

    Chart.PNG
    Last edited by murfie; 04-14-2021 at 05:52 AM.

  9. #9
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    MBT 24 and 20 was the draw of spark, but it looked like a strong pull regardless. Looks like the adders could be pulling up to 6* from borderline until mbt limited the knock sensor. MBT in 14, 20,.... actually more blending with the rest of the mapped points pulled MBT back in the middle of the pull reducing the timing the knock sensors were adding. 14 - 19 borderline doesn't have a lot of timing top end. The blending between these tables will pull timing out at WOT. You can tell in the log there's a limit holding spark from advancing or running steady through the rpm.

    murphlogg.PNG

    Torque Ratio was spot on too, .95 to .98.
    There's the normal base tuning/disabling and increasing to do but these newer 18+ Mustangs come with a strong tune as is. I'd say more transmission tuning, get the drivability you want. I like the skip shift or at least the 1>3, 3>5. Just normal driving the base map. The gears are pretty quick to go through each one every time for me.

    Your fuel source also went into Exhaust Temp Enrich at the end of the pull where lambda richened to .77-.79, could of caused some timing being pulled as well.

  10. #10
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    These cars on 93 don’t take as high timing wise as the gen 1 , gen2 coyotes. But dang do they love some e85 though

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    The Spark Source correctly shows MBT at other times in the log, so I don't know why it wouldn't at WOT. I have seen where VCMScanner lies about other sources, though. I have a Traction Control torque source from time to time that's definitely a lie...

    Anyway, the knock retard looks to be doing its thing just like it's supposed to. As Grim5.0 says, I'd like to see MBT and Borderline PIDs plotted as well, and individual cylinder knock retard. As far as I can tell, MBT at 7000 rpm should be around 25.5 in those conditions, so I think it was still about 1.5 deg short up top.

    Thatwhite5.0, the exhaust temp enrichment should actually add about 1.5 deg borderline timing. It would take away from MBT but again, I don't think it was at MBT.

    I know this is a bit unorthodox, but I prefer to keep WOT on a snap line. For instance, you could create a snap-line between MP25 and MP23, then command OP cam timing that only falls on that snap line. You could keep the intake cam basically identical to stock anywhere it matters and the exhaust cam wouldn't be very far off at all. Then you have just 2 spark maps to play with rather than all of them. The Predator cal is like that, but it keeps it on 2 or 3 snap lines at WOT. I find this greatly eases tuning and the sacrifice is negligible.

  12. #12
    the mobile version kills me with the deleting posts..

    this was prev to engineermikes post

    "can you add the mbt pid and individual cylinders KR too? on the gen2 if using per cyl the retard pid only displays cyl1 or 8"

    ill repost the screen shot later.

    mbt.png
    Last edited by Grim5.0; 04-14-2021 at 08:23 PM.

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    Here's my version of what Grim5.0 stated. You can readily see the commanded timing as it relates to MBT and Borderline. It also smooths out all the bumps caused by individual cylinder correciton.

    spark log.JPG

  14. #14
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    Yes I'm going to add knock per cyl and MBT to follow it easier, when I log 87 later today. The way the stock calibration uses the MP weights stock is definitely even more difficult to follow compared to previous gens, but I think MBT is lower than 23* after 7k, unless it goes into COT. COT on these cars seems to come on a lot less. Then there are times where it comes then goes away. I don't remember ever seeing that.

    I still think OEMs design all their engines to see MBT on the lowest octane available, it is the only way they can offer a warranty. Really need a dyno.
    Last edited by murfie; 04-14-2021 at 11:33 AM.

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    Be sure to put borderline on the log as well. It’s really interesting to watch it start at borderline and start moving toward mbt until knock.

    Did your gen2 run at mbt at wot on 87? I haven’t seen anything run mbt at loads over about 0.85.
    Last edited by engineermike; 04-14-2021 at 12:59 PM.

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    Now that I think about it, if borderline<mbt, it starts at borderline and knock advance starts pushing it up. If it reaches mbt, knock advance stops, but I’m not so sure the spark source changes back to mbt since mbt is still > borderline at that time. Mbt may only be the source if mbt > borderline.

    Now I really want to see mbt, knock retarding, timing, and borderline all on one graph...

  17. #17
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    Yes borderline will be in there.

    NA my gen2 saw MBT and more if I wanted. 29-30+. I've run 16-17 PSI, 2.05-2.1 load and 22.5* of timing on pump 92. I just figured the knock sensors didn't work, and I was in borrowed time. I'm the only one who thinks we have good pump gas here. I have gotten bad tanks of gas on the rare occasion.

    I never played with 87 as back then I did not have the understanding of detonation I do now. I was thought it was a completely random phenomenon, which could not be farther from the truth. Ford almost has it to the point of a feedback loop.
    Last edited by murfie; 04-15-2021 at 03:26 AM.

  18. #18
    curious if the bullitt cam settings give any gains on an otherwise stock gen3. they work well with the gen2 on the my18 mani from an airflow perspective.

    should stay in borderline unless base/mbt become the lower timing commanded such as idle/low loads or forced mbt like e85 tunes.

    more DI sounds useful to help cool and possibly get to mbt but not very much headroom left in the stock tune. is it simple to increase pressure on the HPFP side?

  19. #19
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    What are the bullitt cam settings?

    Stock gdi blend is 90% and it maintains it. How much higher would you go? There is more capacity in the stock gdi system; you just have to know how to get it.

  20. #20
    I just got brand new id 1050x and they are not showing good results.. my ID1000 were better