2015 Mustang GT MHS Race Cams Idle control issues

[Robert00MustangTurbo]

Hello,

I am struggling with idle control with this particular setup.

2015 Mustang GT M6

Edelbrock 2650 Supercharger Kit
Edelbrock CAI
Edelbrock 103MM TB

Modular Head Shop Supercharged Race Camshafts
Part Number MHS-50-BLR
Name 5.0L Coyote Race Blower
Duration @ .050" 236 / 242
Lift .512" / .512"
Lobe Sep Angle 115 + 4
Center Lines 111 / 119

RGR Engines VCT Adjustable Lockouts
MHS/Pac Racing Stage 3 Valve Springs
Fuel Injector Clinic 1440 Injectors IS403-1440H
Twin DW400 Fuel Pump Return System
OBX Long Tube Headers


I will start off by saying the Tri-Core PCM does not have any idle airflow tables other than 33065 ETC Idle Throttle Angle Expected vs Airmass.
Screenshot (17).png




Comparing to the Copperhead PCM (2012 Mustang GT M6), there are a number of available tables to adjust for Idle Airflow
Screenshot (16).png




With that being said, With this set of cams the vehicle will not run or idle steadily with less than 11 degrees throttle angle and 5 degrees ignition timing. They require quite a bit of air at idle to run correctly. On the Tri-core PCM to get the car to run and idle, I adjusted 44363 ETC Predicted Throttle Angle and used the ETC Effective Area Calculator in VCM Editor. It's not pretty, but it got the vehicle running.

Video Clip of it idling https://youtu.be/bes34SSt7bU


Now, I'm dealing with RPM control issues. It will idle around 880-1030, then occasionally it'll climb. You'll also see in Idle Speed Control Mode that it will switch between RPM Ctrl and RPM Ctrk No Learning. It's most likely related to what I had to do to get the vehicle running.

IPC errors started at 1500-2500 swinging. I adjusted Torque Tables 14 (VCT Disabled), Throttle Tables, Idle tables increasing error and corrections, Increasing Idle throttle angle, Driver Demand, and got the error to drop to 780-920 range. I tried adjusting speed density, but no improvement.

When I rev the engine, IPC goes straight to zero and revs up just like any other coyote, nice and in control. It's just idle that's the problem area.


The question is, with this particular setup and limited idle airflow tables, will the vehicle always have IPC error at idle and be fine everywhere else or is there an area I'm completely missing?

I attached the Log, Last tune file I left off with and the base I started with.

2015-Mustang-GT-MHS-Supercharged-Race-cams-IPC-error-high-at-idle.hpl
2015-Mustang-GT-MHS-Supercharged-Race-cams-ipc-errors.hpt
2015 Mustang base file.hpt


Any input or direction would be greatly appreciated. I definitely feel like I am butchering the calibration


Thank You.

Robert

[Thatwhite5.0]

You have to use the throttle body calibration for the 103mm.
Change torque table 14 and inverse 14 back to stock. Right now, that calculation is causing the torque errors because indicated is not calculated at all. It's better off stock for now.
I think I have the 103mm data or a much larger than stock throttle body data on a different hard drive when I changed my SSD after installing windows. I have to search through some files on it when I get a chance later today

I looked over the file and those 4 tables are what is causing your idle issue and torque error issue.


Check your idle RPM tab, read each one. You Want it to idle at 900, make sure 900 rpm the correct tables are also commanding 900. Idle adders, minimum set point.

[Robert00MustangTurbo]

The Edelbrock 103 Throttle Body Data would be a great help, since I do not have that on hand.

test-1.hpl
test-idle.hpt

I was busy here at the shop, but I was able to squeeze some time into adjusting the idle tables. I put the base back on and tested by adjusting idle tables in each tab. It does take throttle to start up but when it enters Dashpot when letting go of the pedal, timing will go between -17 to -7 and throttle angle sits at 15 Degrees. Idles at 550-650rpm, But as soon as it enters RPM Ctrl, Throttle shuts as timing comes up and car dies.

I need to work on these tables more, as it has some sort of idle control without adjusting anything else.

[Robert00MustangTurbo]

Okay,

I removed the 103mm throttle body and Installed the stock throttle body (Older style 2650 that accepts Stock Throttle Body)

Throttle body data is back to stock

Majority of the errors are gone, but again due to the size of the camshafts, the car stalls out below 5 degrees throttle angle and timing goes negative.

Now I've tested many tables one at a time to see if I saw any changes.

38134 Torque inverse 14: Increasing load in the idle area does help and opens the throttle, but timing goes straight to -18 and pretty unstable. I haven't had too much time to play more with that and 38114 today. Was put back to stock


33065 ETC Idle Throttle angle expected vs Airmass: I raised the blade angle but no change. Put back to stock.

10052 and 10050 Idle Torque Reserve: I raised it to 700. No change.

33733 and 33734: Idle Torque Reserve Rate Up and Down: Multiple rates were tested, no change. put back to stock.

9288 Idle Feedback Torque Proportional Gain: I did see a change on startup and idle, but not significant enough to be effective. More testing is needed. Put back to stock

9295: Idle Feedback Torque Integral Gain: Any number I enter, even 1, and it fires right up and has a very fast idle hunt with IPC errors spiking up and down like bananas. Then sustains after a while and dies due to throttle angle falling below 5 degrees.

13179 Stall Saver Load Limit Adjustment - PN: I decided to test this cell to see what happens. I definitely do not recommend touching this table, it shot the rpms through the roof. I had to shut it off.

1685 PRN1 Driver Demand: Adjusted with small and large changes, no change. Put back to stock


Startup and Idle is definitely a struggle with this combination. Air Load with the stock throttle body at idle is at .300-.340 (Throttle angle and spark forced at 6.2 degrees and 5 degrees spark)


I also notice that even if I drive it on the Dyno, Spark source is locked at Torque control no matter what OSS speed and throttle/Pedal angle.


I definitely feel like I am missing something critical. I will continue testing and seeing what I can find.

[aaronson]

Okay,

I removed the 103mm throttle body and Installed the stock throttle body (Older style 2650 that accepts Stock Throttle Body)

Throttle body data is back to stock

Majority of the errors are gone, but again due to the size of the camshafts, the car stalls out below 5 degrees throttle angle and timing goes negative.

Now I've tested many tables one at a time to see if I saw any changes.

38134 Torque inverse 14: Increasing load in the idle area does help and opens the throttle, but timing goes straight to -18 and pretty unstable. I haven't had too much time to play more with that and 38114 today. Was put back to stock


33065 ETC Idle Throttle angle expected vs Airmass: I raised the blade angle but no change. Put back to stock.

10052 and 10050 Idle Torque Reserve: I raised it to 700. No change.

33733 and 33734: Idle Torque Reserve Rate Up and Down: Multiple rates were tested, no change. put back to stock.

9288 Idle Feedback Torque Proportional Gain: I did see a change on startup and idle, but not significant enough to be effective. More testing is needed. Put back to stock

9295: Idle Feedback Torque Integral Gain: Any number I enter, even 1, and it fires right up and has a very fast idle hunt with IPC errors spiking up and down like bananas. Then sustains after a while and dies due to throttle angle falling below 5 degrees.

13179 Stall Saver Load Limit Adjustment - PN: I decided to test this cell to see what happens. I definitely do not recommend touching this table, it shot the rpms through the roof. I had to shut it off.

1685 PRN1 Driver Demand: Adjusted with small and large changes, no change. Put back to stock


Startup and Idle is definitely a struggle with this combination. Air Load with the stock throttle body at idle is at .300-.340 (Throttle angle and spark forced at 6.2 degrees and 5 degrees spark)


I also notice that even if I drive it on the Dyno, Spark source is locked at Torque control no matter what OSS speed and throttle/Pedal angle.


I definitely feel like I am missing something critical. I will continue testing and seeing what I can find.

probably have this completely figured out by now, but the 15 and up idle is pretty much all controlled by driver demand. Id assume youd be producing more than stock idle torque so thts one thing to look into. Another thing is your idle vacuum will be different as well so if you can keep the car running long enough to measure idle vacuum, you may need to rescale the y-axis in the predicted throttle body vs manifold vacuum( i think thats what its called). However, I may be way off in thos assumptions, but that would be my guess

[Robert00MustangTurbo]

Unfortunately I haven't figured it all out, but I did get it to idle Via Torque tables. It was the only table that would work.


I still have a lot of work to do on this calibration in the torque table. I feel with these camshafts I have to literally create it's own values in the torque tables and create a whole new torque table all together, like writing a standalone EMS Map.

I tried doing just driver demand. Car will not idle very well and will not control it.

Tried throttle body changes in Predicted area and Effective area. Car will not control idle

Torque tables were the only tables that I found that allowed idle and spark control. Weird thing it'll control everything with error present. As soon as errors are gone, Torque control comes in and hammers timing down during drivability.

I feel this is going to take me a long while of trial and Error to dial the vehicle in and get her going on these camshafts. Definitely a learning experience.

I appreciate everyone's input.

Attached are the logs and calibration files of what I tested and where i'm at.

2015 Mustang GT MHS Supercharged Race cams torque tables adjusted 3.hpl
2015 Mustang GT MHS Supercharged Race cams DRIVER DEMAND ONLY.hpl
2015 Mustang GT MHS Supercharged Race cams DRIVER DEMAND ONLY 2.hpl
2015 Mustang GT MHS Supercharged Race cams TORQUE TABLES MODIFIED.hpt
2015 Mustang GT MHS Supercharged Race cams DRIVER DEMAND MODIFIED.hpt

[superman07]

I am running into a similar issue. Whipple used arbitrarily low mbt torque values for both the startup, and idle mapped points. They then used very low torque values in the torque tables with some airflow offsets to try and make it work. This really cuased a ton of problems with negative timing and the torque model resulting at very retarded idle spark, hot head temps and valves, and very loud popping from timing retard on any decel, shifts, or even just light lifting of the accelerator.

I have cleaned out the calibration so that it drives really well, no issues anywhere. popping is gone, sounds way better, runs cooler, pedal to torque delivery is really linear and fueling is great.

But it just doesn't like to startup or idle perfectly. I can get it to idle now around 750 - with a couple degrees of spark advance, but it will then randomly float up to 1k-1.5k rpm for a while, timing will decrease as the TB is opened.

I'm guessing the friction losses, or inertial torque may be off. I log all of the sources, it isn't changing modes, it just doesn't act right. If I turn on AC it idles perfectly.

[Robert00MustangTurbo]

So after many hours on the dyno and road tests, I've finally got the car dialed in.

NOTE: This is what worked for me. It may not work for everyone or they have their own method.

1st problem came down to the throttle body. It didn't throw any codes but it was causing issues. I happen to have a spare stock Gen 2 throttle body laying around. Installed it for the hell of it and it was a night and day difference.

I put the idle tables, torque tables and many others back to stock and started all over again. Now the car started and held idle, BUT rpm control was very poor and ignored because it was in dashpot and would not enter RPM Ctrl.

So the way I've found to fix that is to go into the torque tables and increase load at idle in the inverse table between 500rpms-2000rpms and reduce the torque on the torque table at that load area( Which is Mapped Point 14 since VCT is disabled and defaulted there, so I chose to work off of that table.) This took a lot of trial and error until the car was happy.

I've obtained complete control of idle doing that method and will idle what I command. I then was able to adjust the idle tables to my desired idle I wanted. Again, this took trial and error as well because some areas of your desired idle and decel can either hang idle or stall out while in dashpot because torque tables are off, especially on colder temperatures.

You can listen to the cold start and idle control here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCFPfhjUK6o


Then came the dyno. I was having issues with the car not going into Power Enrichment at WOT. This was also caused by the combination of torque tables/Driver Demand.
When you make changes to the torque tables in the area affected, you can actually see the effects because the ETC Vacuum and ETC Effective area in the log changes values .
Again, this took trial and error to get the car to drive and get it to command what you set your desired values at. It did some wild stuff and the dyno graphs it was putting out were pretty gnarly to look at.

Many days and hours, I finally got the car to do what it was commanded and maintain great drivability with these aggressive camshafts. I still have more work to do to be finished with this calibration.

Attached is the Calibration file and a log

2015 Mustang GT MHS Race Camshafts Edelbrock 2650 Stock Throttle Body FIC1440 Twin DW400 Return .hpt
2015 Mustang GT MHS Supercharged Race cams WOT 6.hpl