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Thread: Help me Understand EGR tunning map

  1. #1
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    Help me Understand EGR tunning map

    Hi everyone i'm from Australia and want to tune EGR map for a Ford Ranger 2018 PX2 3.2L 5 Cylinder Diesel engine.....my question is can the HP tuner software lower all EGR parameters so the EGR never opens up ? or is HP tuners not supplying this map due to EPA regulation banning them from giving us this option to tune this map so we don't mess with the emissions ?

    also when tuning with the EGR off how would i go about tuning with the fuel correction ? when EGR is on and working/activated.... less clean fresh air is entering the cylinders so from what i know more fuel will need to be added by the manufacture to make more power due to Hot less fresh air entering cylinders killing performance.

    so do i just pull fuel out of the fuel tables or do i have to add even more fuel ?

    please correct me if i em wrong.

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    No need to add more fuel. Hard to explain on here but they aren?t that dependant on air fuel ratios. Still don?t want to go under 18-19:1

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    Advanced Tuner TheMechanic's Avatar
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    EGR does nothing more than "take space" and lower the displacement of the motor thereby reducing the heat generated, it also reduces this heat by having a lower temperature relative to the combustion process that will absorb heat. Lowering the temperature is needed to reduce NOx. NOx is formed when combustion temperature go above 2500F

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    Advanced Tuner JaegerWrenching's Avatar
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    Air is 78% nitrogen 21% oxygen and a little bit of other gases. Diesel engines restrict fuel amount to control engine RPM, thus they move as much air as they typically can at all times. There is a throttle body but it's used for prioritizing EGR flow over outside air flow into the cylinders, and for smooth engine shut downs to reduce things like belt chirp. This style of rev control by fuel amount typically results in an abundance of available nitrogen and oxygen molecules relative to the combusted oxygen or AFR. Meaning during and after combustion there will be excess oxygen and nitrogen in the cylinder ripe for NOx and other emission production. Recirculating the exhaust gas means we are replacing that available cylinder volume with previously made NOx, CO2, CO, and other gases which won't react a second time when being present during the combustion process. This reduces NOx and other emission production. Increasing EGR flow means there will be less available oxygen and thus less fuel will be required to maintain the same AFR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JaegerWrenching View Post
    Air is 78% nitrogen 21% oxygen and a little bit of other gases. Diesel engines restrict fuel amount to control engine RPM, thus they move as much air as they typically can at all times. There is a throttle body but it's used for prioritizing EGR flow over outside air flow into the cylinders, and for smooth engine shut downs to reduce things like belt chirp. This style of rev control by fuel amount typically results in an abundance of available nitrogen and oxygen molecules relative to the combusted oxygen or AFR. Meaning during and after combustion there will be excess oxygen and nitrogen in the cylinder ripe for NOx and other emission production. Recirculating the exhaust gas means we are replacing that available cylinder volume with previously made NOx, CO2, CO, and other gases which won't react a second time when being present during the combustion process. This reduces NOx and other emission production. Increasing EGR flow means there will be less available oxygen and thus less fuel will be required to maintain the same AFR.
    Ok thanks heaps for explaining this...I'm starting to see the logic now.

    Increase in Egr flow = less air oxygen Thus = needing less fuel
    No Egr flow(EGR disabled) = more air oxygen Thus = needing more fuel to utilize more Hp benifites on partial throttle ?

    I get you don't HAVE TO add more fuel when disabling EGR completely.....HOWEVER since there is slightly more air density i could add more fuel to maximize slightly hp potential with EGR disabled?

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    Advanced Tuner JaegerWrenching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aus_spec_ranger View Post
    Ok thanks heaps for explaining this...I'm starting to see the logic now.

    Increase in Egr flow = less air oxygen Thus = needing less fuel
    No Egr flow(EGR disabled) = more air oxygen Thus = needing more fuel to utilize more Hp benifites on partial throttle ?

    I get you don't HAVE TO add more fuel when disabling EGR completely.....HOWEVER since there is slightly more air density i could add more fuel to maximize slightly hp potential with EGR disabled?
    More air means more fuel to maintain afr, which typically equates to more power. So yeah more power is theoretically achievable when more air is available. You're also right if you have an 80-1AFR and you make it 90-1 with more air instead of egr, without adding any fuel you will make close to the same power as you're burning the same total amount of oxygen even with an leaner AFR. Usually in high afr ranges the increase in emissions is negligible as high AFR conditions only occur in low fuel amount and cylinder pressure ranges like idle and light throttle. When we start asking for power we start using that available air and so we also have higher cylinder pressures and combustion temps which increase their production. It's a balancing act. But remember if you increase fuel amount entering the cylinder there will be a slightly longer autoignition delay increase as more heat has been absorbed by the higher fuel volume entering the cylinder thus dropping the cylinder temp. This is where timing increases take place to give appropriate time for the fuel to heat up and combust. Sometimes it's not needed and other times pilot mass and timing increases can be all you need in high AFR scenarios to have higher starting cylinder temps which negate the higher fuel amount heat absorption. But for all out power and being on the line of burning all the available oxygen, by adding pilot you will take away available oxygen from the main event, this can sometimes hurt overall power. There is so much to know and learn about this but in stock form usually you have some extra air cushion available for fuel increase and MOOH POWAH! lol! Play around and see what nets you the best result, as every engine is a little different and diesel tuning is very subjective.

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    JaegerWrenching "This is where timing increases take place to give appropriate time for the fuel to heat up and combust. Sometimes it's not needed and other times pilot mass and timing increases can be all you need in high AFR scenarios to have higher starting cylinder temps which negate the higher fuel amount heat absorption"

    This is the sort of information i need to know and dont know what book to read or where to get diesel volumetric air fuel efficiency understanding. I was blown away on how lean u can run a diesel

    Gas engine light throttle = 13-17Afrs
    Gas engine WOT = 11-12.5 Afrs
    Diesle engines with my understanding in AFR'S
    diesle engine light throttle = 21-60Afrs ? ( Maybe even more??)
    Diesle engines WOT = 15.5-19 Afrs ? ( Dont go ritcher then 15.5 or higher egt and more smoke with only small amount in HP?)

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    When tuning Diesels, basically forget the AFR. It?s not petrol and is tuned way different.

    Only need to make sure at full throttle it doesnt go under 18:1

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    To keep the valve closed change the open tables to 2048 on all 3 and close tables to 0 on all 3 dont change the regen tables have found this does add some boost between gear changes as the EGR appears to act like a blow off valve to reduce and smooth the boost curve preferably I like to leave it stock
    Last edited by 9inty9er; 06-28-2021 at 08:11 AM.

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    Advanced Tuner JaegerWrenching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natedogg1986 View Post
    When tuning Diesels, basically forget the AFR. It?s not petrol and is tuned way different.

    Only need to make sure at full throttle it doesnt go under 18:1
    I go under 18.0 all the time, unless you're going for 0 smoke production and like the stock/slow throttle response there's a descent amount to be had! Especially if timing is set appropriate for the fuel there isn't a real noticeable smoke increase for the power. I see a lot of gale banks regurgitation on forums now a days, unfortunately he doesn't tell you his approach to tuning is no wasted fuel aka some smoke = bad. But if no smoke production was actually achievable then every stock truck wouldn't require a DPF..... He also doesn't mention in his videos that you will actually make more power but at the cost of wasting some fuel as smoke. If you have the airflow to maintain you desired power with an 18.0AFR awesome do it! I have had decent gains on trucks that start to haze have add some more and they pick up more. Gas cars go under 1.0 lambda all the time in factory calibrations.... but they don't produce the smoke like a diesel does so there for it's "acceptable". Still wasting fuel but just not visible to the human eyeball. It's worth a try to see where you engine is happy and learn some things along the way instead of setting an imaginary boundary.
    Last edited by JaegerWrenching; 06-28-2021 at 05:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9inty9er View Post
    To keep the valve closed change the open tables to 2048 on all 3 and close tables to 0 on all 3 dont change the regen tables have found this does add some boost between gear changes as the EGR appears to act like a blow off valve to reduce and smooth the boost curve preferably I like to leave it stock
    awsome thanks heaps....but there is a regen table for the EGR ? isn't the regen table for a DPF burn cycle ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JaegerWrenching View Post
    I go under 18.0 all the time, unless you're going for 0 smoke production and like the stock/slow throttle response there's a descent amount to be had! Especially if timing is set appropriate for the fuel there isn't a real noticeable smoke increase for the power. I see a lot of gale banks regurgitation on forums now a days, unfortunately he doesn't tell you his approach to tuning is no wasted fuel aka some smoke = bad. But if no smoke production was actually achievable then every stock truck wouldn't require a DPF..... He also doesn't mention in his videos that you will actually make more power but at the cost of wasting some fuel as smoke. If you have the airflow to maintain you desired power with an 18.0AFR awesome do it! I have had decent gains on trucks that start to haze have add some more and they pick up more. Gas cars go under 1.0 lambda all the time in factory calibrations.... but they don't produce the smoke like a diesel does so there for it's "acceptable". Still wasting fuel but just not visible to the human eyeball. It's worth a try to see where you engine is happy and learn some things along the way instead of setting an imaginary boundary.
    Some people just cant be helped. There is no imagination about it, under 18:1 and the EGT is the issue for sustained operations. Smoke is not the issue. But if you keep going along those lines going under 18:1 leads to DPF getting full faster than it should.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Natedogg1986 View Post
    Some people just cant be helped. There is no imagination about it, under 18:1 and the EGT is the issue for sustained operations. Smoke is not the issue. But if you keep going along those lines going under 18:1 leads to DPF getting full faster than it should.
    Nate It's okay to have a difference of opinion and have dialog back and forth on a topic you're passionate about without getting upset! If you're wanting to say a few sentences and leave thinking I or someone else won't add to it or question it you're wrong! I want people to question me! I'm also wrong all the time and I have posts on this forum where i've said things that are wrong.... I could easily edit them away but i choose not to because i want others to learn from my mistakes and see my own learning pains over the years. That said I don't think this is a right or wrong topic but more so a tuning preference... These trucks will hit EGT limitations with a stock tune during sustained WOT pulls...... so does that mean the stock calibrators screwed up according to you? I also never said to remove EGT limiting therefore sustained heat isn't an issue.... you'll just eclipse the egt limiter sooner. What if their truck has a high flow dpf? What do they primarily use their truck for? Did they re-scale the maf correctly for their new aftermarket intake so airflow is calculated properly? Did they alter the injector PW map? How are you calculating AFR? How is the person you're talking to calculating AFR? Is their AFR sensor calibrated? This is why i said it's the "imaginary boundary".... it is a moving target that can so easily be set wrong because of a multitude of reasons. But your theoretical 18.0AFR limitation won't even let them find that out! But let's say it were calibrated and working properly, I had previously said "If you have the airflow to maintain "your" desired power with an 18.0AFR awesome do it!" This is in agreeance with you..... but what i had said also lets the person make the decision that's best for them and their style of driving. Being richer will bring on hotter EGT's, again agreeance with you, but it also helps spool the turbo sooner, and gets into boost sooner to make more power sooner, but creates higher DPF soot load sooner. It doesn't mean it's right or wrong for everyone... and that 18.0 AFR is all or nothing.... or even mean that some people just can't be helped lol! If you had said use caution around 18.0AFR i would have left it alone. But imagine a world where no one ever questioned anyone and took one's word for everything, there would be less breakthroughs and forward advancements. Even this video brings to light things thought to be previously impossible by some of the worlds smartest! https://youtu.be/yCsgoLc_fzI

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    To answer original questions, from my perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aus_spec_ranger View Post
    Hi everyone i'm from Australia and want to tune EGR map for a Ford Ranger 2018 PX2 3.2L 5 Cylinder Diesel engine.....my question is can the HP tuner software lower all EGR parameters so the EGR never opens up ?
    Yes, EGR flow control can be tuned out, but EGR operation (P5AT with SID209) only occurs at low-mid load up to 2500rpm, outside of that EGR is not active. The EGR tables do not impact DPF operation. Not sure you'll feel any difference in performance behaviour.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aus_spec_ranger View Post
    also when tuning with the EGR off how would i go about tuning with the fuel correction ?
    No need. Fuel is [essentially] controlled by your right foot and running air rich won't hurt your motor. Running a richer (than stock) AFR will result in 'more frequent' DPF burns, but is heavily determined by your right foot.

    If you want more power, suggest you swap turbo to a GT22 Powermax (or equivalent with the bigger shaft) to stay air rich as the stock turbo can't flow much extra. My [admittedly anecdotal] data is that the P5AT isn't a big fan of richer AFR's (people are happy to rave about tuning power increases but not so talkative about broken pistons).

    Just my $0.02...
    Ian B
    '15 Holden VF SSVR L77
    '19 Ford PX3 Ranger 3.2TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by VFL77 View Post
    To answer original questions, from my perspective.

    Yes, EGR flow control can be tuned out, but EGR operation (P5AT with SID209) only occurs at low-mid load up to 2500rpm, outside of that EGR is not active. The EGR tables do not impact DPF operation. Not sure you'll feel any difference in performance behaviour.

    No need. Fuel is [essentially] controlled by your right foot and running air rich won't hurt your motor. Running a richer (than stock) AFR will result in 'more frequent' DPF burns, but is heavily determined by your right foot.

    If you want more power, suggest you swap turbo to a GT22 Powermax (or equivalent with the bigger shaft) to stay air rich as the stock turbo can't flow much extra. My [admittedly anecdotal] data is that the P5AT isn't a big fan of richer AFR's (people are happy to rave about tuning power increases but not so talkative about broken pistons).

    Just my $0.02...
    Thanks heaps for the reply....when u said my right foot will add more fuel are u saying the ecu will see the extra fresh air when egr is blocked down low rpm and add more fuel from the fuel tables? Or are u saying diesle will run just as good lean and fuel will be added as per usual fuel trim maps ?

    Also how do u know the p5at pistons are weak and brake at ritch Afrs ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aus_spec_ranger View Post
    ....when u said my right foot will add more fuel are u saying the ecu will see the extra fresh air when egr is blocked down low rpm and add more fuel from the fuel tables? Or are u saying diesle will run just as good lean and fuel will be added as per usual fuel trim maps ?
    Also how do u know the p5at pistons are weak and brake at ritch Afrs ?
    The accelerator specifies how much torque you want, The amount of fuel injected (for that torque and RPM combination) is determined by a Torque-to-Fuel lookup table. As best I can tell, the ECU only does a sanity check on MAF vs Fuel, it doesn't explicitly use MAF determine fuel (it's NOT a petrol engine).
    It's clear you don't have a solid understanding of diesel motor fuelling operation, so spend some more time learning about how diesel engines differ from petrol when looking at fuelling and the consequences on AFR and EGT.

    As said, my info is anecdotal, most (but not all) instances of P5AT failure are associated with tunes and piston failure. I'm always on the lookout for more info, but it's hard to get honest info.
    Ian B
    '15 Holden VF SSVR L77
    '19 Ford PX3 Ranger 3.2TD