Dealin with 2 bar problems. Need help~

[redhotjamedjimi]

january 11th i get a stage 3 clutch (Spec) put in and ill try to get a 1/4 time and or maybe dyno to make me happy. Now its slipping all over even with a new clutch thats somewhat oem. damn ebay. Oh well. Ill have some pics and a log file today. Vrooom Psssss.

[redzq8]

Well I don't have the software in front of me to know how feasible this idea is, however I want to run it past you guys anyway.

The TPS is a 0-5V signal right? 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor is also a 0-5V signal right? Is there a reason you couldn't run a secondary MAP sensor in to the TPS input on the PCM, and then have an RPM vs MAP VE table instead of an RPM vs TPS VE table?

Seems like it would work to me, however like I said, I don't have the software in front of me to see what other effects this might have on other tables (like AE, and DE, and things of that nature)

[redhotjamedjimi]

at idle it would be reading you are hitting the throttle and it would accel immediately i believe if not more reasons. i see what u mean tho. unless it had a relay to the pedal so it turned it on only whne touching gas. well see what the pros say tho.

also you would have a prob keepin the same speed.

i was thinking the best solution would be a hobbs switc so at full boost it would go to full tps.

Or massive amounts of ve killing.

PLus i dont think there would be very much an advantage since at ful boost at half throottle and full throttle you would get more air with a open plenum i would guess so it wouldnt be more accurate.

[redzq8]

You don't disconnect the throttle cable, so the blade will still function just fine. The truck wouldn't just take off, you still need to use the throttle for that. It simply would move the value in the VE table at idle, as well as at part throttle and other places.

As for more air with more TPS, have you noticed that the truck pulls harder with 3/4 throttle than with 1/2 throttle? The throttle blades meter the amount of air allowed into the engine. While you will still get more air the further you push the pedal, it's also still a proportionate amount different.

I would certainly think that running the VE table off a MAP sensor instead of the TPS would net better results on a boosted application. I've tuned a Typhoon before that used this method, and it was fairly easy to dial in. However without AE, and DE I'm not sure I'd get the desired results here.

I need to get the program in front of me to look, I was just hoping one of the seasoned tuners could provide some insight on this thought.

I've got the turbo apart now, and getting it cleaned up. I have to finish a brake project before continuing much further with the turbo, however I'm looking to be running under boost by sometime in mid-May or so. Initial tuning is going to be the band-aid 10:1 FMU taht everyone and thier brother uses. I have stock Sy/Ty injectors (33lb), as well as hope to have HPTuners by S-series Nats in June.

[redzq8]

Oh well. Ill have some pics and a log file today. Vrooom Psssss.

Kinda curious why you're running a clutch fan AND an electric fan? Take that clutch fan off there man, it's not doing you any good anymore.

[redhotjamedjimi]

duhh. i havent gotten a hold of the tool to do it. tried doing it it didnt work. the clutch kills its like 90% of the time and when it kicks on helps cool all the stuff i got going under my hood.

and if you dont use tps then you have no way of hitting gas. so how would a map do anything about that?

and whyed u ask aboutthe 1/2 throttle 3/4 throotle thats exactly what i just said. more throttle more air. not neccessarily more map.

[redzq8]

duhh. i havent gotten a hold of the tool to do it. tried doing it it didnt work. the clutch kills its like 90% of the time and when it kicks on helps cool all the stuff i got going under my hood.

and if you dont use tps then you have no way of hitting gas. so how would a map do anything about that?

and whyed u ask aboutthe 1/2 throttle 3/4 throotle thats exactly what i just said. more throttle more air. not neccessarily more map.

The TPS is the sensor that reads the throttle change, not the thing doing the throttle change. You can still push the pedal, and open the throttle. However that info won't be relayed to the computer.

Also as for different MAP, at the same TPS, or vice versa. There are a ton of cars that run speed density programs, and they work just fine using a MAP vs RPM VE table.

[redhotjamedjimi]

yea not ours. tps runs how much pedal i push down. an option i like.

also on a automatic it controls shifts. hows that going to work with map?

also if the computer doesnt know when u are hitting the pedal it wont make up for the extra gas or know when to go open to closed etc.

your idea is a bit off.

someone has to agree with me that it would be not worth it.

plus throwing tps codes.

or starting up at it would say you are at half throttle and prob never idle.

[redzq8]

TPS = Throttle Position Sensor. A sensor that REPORTS (not dictates) the throttle position. You don't have an electronic throttle. I can see the throttle cable in the picture you have posted above. I can highlight it if you like.

I'm sure it will cause issues with an automatic trans. I have a 5spd, so thats not an issue for me. It would still be receiving info through the TPS input, so it won't be setting any codes.

I'm not sure how it will impact acceleration enrichment, or decel enleanment, which is why I either need to hear from someone who knows what they are talking about, or have the software in front of me to figure it out.

I sure wish HPTuners did demo downloads

[redhotjamedjimi]

well im saying to accel rpm your computer needs a accurate whats going on with the throttle not the map. map's for timing for a reason.

Stop telling me what i have i know what i have.

I know how an engine works and to switch a map with tps is going to make it not perform as well in any scenario. im having enough 2 bar probs to worry about how map is going to affect my ve tables when they are going to have stft after all the math anyway.

same with a map its still have stft so why even bother reading map for amount of air. maybe a maf would work so its saying how much how cold not just a random map number telling you absolutley nothing helpful at full boost. or idle.

I'm sure when someone else reads this they will ask why your trying to do this anyway. any map pressure above 0 is gogin to make your tps read at some percentage and there no idle or open loop then?

unless you make some electonic things to regulate voltage to what it should read at 0%tps at idle let alone figuring out what your doing with cruise trying to be fuel efficient and have a somewhat reactive pedal.

Good luck.

[redzq8]

From your above post I'm going to guess you have little to no idea how sensors work, or how the PCM interperets the signals. The TPS sensor and the MAP sensor are both 0-5V range sensors. With a 2bar map you can sense both vacuum, and up to 14.7psi of manifold pressure. So vacuum = 0volts output, and 14.7psi of boost = 5v. Same swing as the TPS where 0%=0v, and 100%=5v. By wiring a secondary MAP sensor into the TPS wiring, my hopes are it will change the VE table from being based on TPS to being based on MAP.

If you know the RPM, the air temp, and the pressure in the manifold the computer can calculate the amount of fuel to feed the engine for the current conditions. This is what the VE table does. By changing the values in that area, you are changing the "known amount" of air that the computer is using in it's calculations.

The VE table will still work. I'm sure of that, however I'm not sure how the computer will interpert changes in MAP that are now tied to the previously used TPS input. Acceleration enrichment adds a small mount to the pulsewidth of the injectors when the throttle position changes. This is usually a 2d map where delta TPS is related to an additional mSec to be added to the injectors open time. There is usually a MAP related AE table as well. so I would like to think that one could simply not use the AE table (by zeroing it out), and that would cure the problem.

Without cruise, or an Automatic, I can't think of anything else the throttle is effecting. I'm going to discontinue this arguement until we can get some input from one of "the experts" on here. I don't mean to be an ass, but either you can't get your valid points across in writing, or you don't have a clue what you are talking about. If it's the first, my appologies for not understanding.

[redhotjamedjimi]

at idle vaccuum you the map wont read 0 volts.

Dude you are not so smart yourself.

This is my room about my 2bar not about your bad ideas that someone wouldve though of before.

at idle my 2bar reads 25kpa it wouldnt be 0 volts. plus it can go even below that vacuum.

Anyone could figure that math out.

0 Volts on a 2bar map sensor is one full bar below 0 psi which is impossible on any engine case closed. THIS ISNT WRONG.

you are not smart and need to silence yourself i was trying to help u figure out whether it would work and you keep attacking me. ASk a expert hell say exactly what i say.

[redzq8]

at idle vaccuum you the map wont read 0 volts.

Dude you are not so smart yourself.

This is my room about my 2bar not about your bad ideas that someone wouldve though of before.

at idle my 2bar reads 25kpa it wouldnt be 0 volts. plus it can go even below that vacuum.

Anyone could figure that math out.

0 Volts on a 2bar map sensor is one full bar below 0 psi which is impossible on any engine case closed. THIS ISNT WRONG.

you are not smart and need to silence yourself i was trying to help u figure out whether it would work and you keep attacking me. ASk a expert hell say exactly what i say.

You are completely and totally missing the point. Just becuase it doesn't go to 0 volts doesn't mean it won't work. There are tons of areas on a VE table that are rarely or never visited however still exist.

PM a mod, and have them split the topic if you want. So I don't clutter up your thread.

I'll take this to PM with others for now, I can see I'm getting nowhere here.

[redhotjamedjimi]

the point is if the tps aint reading 0 it doesnt go in closed loop.

learn what voltage signal means.

it ould be like holding down the pedal a lil bit and never letting go.

[redzq8]

Who cares if it never goes into closed loop? It's perfectly acceptable to drive around on a tune that is in open loop at all times. In fact, if you are doing datalogging, and tuning in closed loop, you're going to be chasing your tail while tuning because the LTFT, and STFT's are going to be changing (They're called BLM's, and Integrators in OBDI tuning in case you were wondering), and effecting the accuracy of your datalogs.

You've been tuning for a month now with HPTuners. I've been tuning for several years on other software, however I'll give you the fact you have a months more experience than me on this particular platform. Your lack of experience in general theory is showing through. SO, learn what the terms you're using mean.

Can you at least get me some screen shots of the VE tables? Can you also get me a screen shot of any of the other tables, and constants, that have TPS as an axis? I can tell VERY quickly if the idea will work or not if I could simply see the software, and where the TPS signal is applied in the tune.

[Russ K]

I'm not sure what questions are being asked or answered. As these pics show, the VE tables use tps as the load axis, except for the idle VE table (map). And if the VE table needs to be higher than 100%, you need to enter that % into the VE offset table.
I'm still not getting what a 2bar set up will do?

Closed loop will be enabled (STFT) at any tps% below the pe tps% enable. Since there is no open loop table on the 2.2 engine yet, the commanded open loop AFR will be all over the place when not in pe. This is why only the wot (pe) areas of the VE table can be set in open loop. The part throttle (none pe) areas of the VE table will have to be set up in closed loop by logging the LTFT's. Also 14.7 psi is 1 bar, not 2, vacuum is anything lower then 14.7 psi (sea level)

Russ Kemp

[redhotjamedjimi]

ITs not that its 2bar, he wants to know what happens if u put an extra map or use the same line attached tothe tps if it would work. i say no.

[redzq8]

I'm not sure what questions are being asked or answered. As these pics show, the VE tables use tps as the load axis, except for the idle VE table (map). And if the VE table needs to be higher than 100%, you need to enter that % into the VE offset table.
I'm still not getting what a 2bar set up will do?

Closed loop will be enabled (STFT) at any tps% below the pe tps% enable. Since there is no open loop table on the 2.2 engine yet, the commanded open loop AFR will be all over the place when not in pe. This is why only the wot (pe) areas of the VE table can be set in open loop. The part throttle (none pe) areas of the VE table will have to be set up in closed loop by logging the LTFT's. Also 14.7 psi is 1 bar, not 2, vacuum is anything lower then 14.7 psi (sea level)

Russ Kemp

A breath of fresh air....Thanks for the screen shots. 2 bar is actually 29.4psi of ABSOLUTE pressure. Which at sea level will read 14.7psi on a guage. MAP stands for manifold absolute pressure. The advantage of moving to a 2-bar, or 3-bar MAP sensor is that you can adjust your fueling for higher boost levels. As the pressure in the intake goes up, the amount of fuel needed goes up in a proportionate amount. If you can measure, and let the PCM read these higher boost levels then you can easily tune them.

Sounds like I could set PE enable to 0%, and get it out of closed loop if I wanted. Can you grab me a screen shot of those available settings?

Also sounds as if there is no TPS signal, then it is assuming it's at idle, and relying completely on the idle table, which could be faked into a 2-bar tune easy enough. Can you get me some screen shots of any Acceleration Enrichment or Deceleration Enleanment tables that might be available?

I'll be getting the software asap, and will go ahead, and attempt to convert it over to a 2bar setup then. Worst case I let the stock PCM control timing, and I'll put a Sy/Ty ECM in there to control fueling. I hate having two systems operating, but it might work out decent. I'd certainly rather get this setup to run a true 2 bar system though.

[redhotjamedjimi]

haha this guy doesnt like russ's obviously telling u how things work lol.

i believe accel enrich isnt available with pe kind of same thing.

you should be ok faking a 2 bar. its worked wonders for me. redz.

U play paintball redz?

[Russ K]

I still don't see what faking a 2 bar is doing for your tuning. As I've said before, only the idle VE table is referenced to map for load. The other VE tables are referenced to TPS% for the load axis.

Russ Kemp