Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: ID1050x Heavy Idle Fuel Smell

  1. #1
    Tuner in Training Bigred1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    OC, California
    Posts
    40

    ID1050x Heavy Idle Fuel Smell

    Hey Guys! I have pretty big Cam in my c6 z06. I added ID1050x's and my tuner got it all tuned up and it runs and drives great! the car has a heavy fuel smell at idle warm or cold. I have long tubes and a free flowing exhaust. The smell doesn't bother me too much and having headers with a free flowing exhaust I understand there will smell no matter what.

    Unfortunately my neighbors aren't as understanding lol (dont blame them). Is there a way I can tune out as much fuel smell at idle as much as possible? Again Im pretty reasonable and understand it won't be perfect like a stock car, but would like to see what I can do in the tune to take out the strong fuel smell at idle.

    Attached my tune and a recent log.

    Surge fix.hpl
    Silver 2008 C6 Z06 Updated 7-17-21 - Rev 1 Currently inuse.hpt

    I appreciate all the help support!! (local tuners do not care much about overall drivability unfortunately)

  2. #2
    Tuning Addict 5FDP's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Rogers, MN
    Posts
    13,533
    Holy cow is that a ton of timing swing at idle, that isn't exactly what I would want all for a smooth-ish idle and to help combat the smell.

    Just took a quick look, they forget to half the IVT terms for doing the double stoich method on these large injectors. Now sure how much that is going to screw with things if you correct that now. The fuel smell could be helped with some injection timing changes, I'd do some reading on that.
    2016 Silverado CCSB 5.3/6L80e, not as slow but still heavy.

    If you don't post your tune and logs when you have questions you aren't helping yourself.

  3. #3
    Tuner in Training Bigred1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    OC, California
    Posts
    40
    Quote Originally Posted by 5FDP View Post
    Holy cow is that a ton of timing swing at idle, that isn't exactly what I would want all for a smooth-ish idle and to help combat the smell.

    Just took a quick look, they forget to half the IVT terms for doing the double stoich method on these large injectors. Now sure how much that is going to screw with things if you correct that now. The fuel smell could be helped with some injection timing changes, I'd do some reading on that.
    Yeahhh I told him I wanted some heavy chop chop (rice I know lol). If that contributes to the fuel smell then so be it lol. Where can I read on some accurate information on Injection timing changes??

    Does anyone know if halving the IVT Terms will effect the tune in other ways? what does the IVT directly effect?
    Machine Silver 08 C6z: AHP stage 4 CNC heads, CMS Stage 4 Cam, Longtubes, AHP Ported MSD intake, Vararam snake charmer intake, NW 103, BBE fusion and ID1050X's
    Victory Red 08 C6z: Heads, custom Cam, Longtubes, Ported Fast 102, Corsa Exhaust, Haltech intake - Sold

  4. #4
    Tuner in Training Bigred1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    OC, California
    Posts
    40
    Quote Originally Posted by 5FDP View Post
    Holy cow is that a ton of timing swing at idle, that isn't exactly what I would want all for a smooth-ish idle and to help combat the smell.

    Just took a quick look, they forget to half the IVT terms for doing the double stoich method on these large injectors. Now sure how much that is going to screw with things if you correct that now. The fuel smell could be helped with some injection timing changes, I'd do some reading on that.
    I halved the IVT terms and updated my data log. see attached

    Silver 2008 C6 Z06 Updated 7-18-21 - Rev 3.hpt
    7-18-2021 - attempt 3.hpl
    Machine Silver 08 C6z: AHP stage 4 CNC heads, CMS Stage 4 Cam, Longtubes, AHP Ported MSD intake, Vararam snake charmer intake, NW 103, BBE fusion and ID1050X's
    Victory Red 08 C6z: Heads, custom Cam, Longtubes, Ported Fast 102, Corsa Exhaust, Haltech intake - Sold

  5. #5
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    21
    https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...ance-Requested

    This thread will help greatly with getting your injector timing correct for your cam. Cuts down a bunch on the fuel smell when you get it nailed down.
    09 G8 GT - Forged L76 6.0 - K1 crank, K1 H-beams, Diamond pistons, BTR PDS 3, BTR .660 kit, stock LSA w/ZL1 re-enforced lid, 2.45 upper, 4" intake w/ LS7 MAF, Kooks 1 7/8" long tubes, Kooks 3" x pipe, Corsa axleback, ID1050x w/ ZR1 rail, CTSV V2 pump, Vaporworx PWM controller, Circle D Lvl 3 6l80 w/ FTI triple disc

    Engine assembled by Nickens Brothers, everything else built, assembled and tuned by me.

  6. #6
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    329
    Quote Originally Posted by old4door View Post
    https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...ance-Requested

    This thread will help greatly with getting your injector timing correct for your cam. Cuts down a bunch on the fuel smell when you get it nailed down.
    Yes he is spot on with this thread. Your fuel smell is mostly due to the stock EOIT tables you have and large overlap values for the cam you have. You are pushing fuel straight out the exhaust during the overlap period of the cam. If there is no catalyst then you are going to have some fuel smell no matter what.

    Didn't look at your cam specs but you will most likely need to retard injection timing at idle to make sure it starts after the exhaust valve closes. Reversion in the cylinder can also literally suck your fuel charge right out of the intake port into the exhaust at idle during overlap and sometimes even at lower RPMs. At higher RPMs you can start to change how you modify the EOIT versus how you do at idle.

    There are a few calculators out there(in that posted thread there is at least one good one) to put your cam specs in and get a pretty close value for the EOIT tables but it helps to be on a dyno too as you can pick up power and watching torque increase as you change these tables is the easiest way to confirm you are going in the right direction. Obviously if the fuel smell is getting better that can show you that you are making the right changes as well if you want to play with it on the street.

    Idle timing swing is also something to address. Proportional and integral idle air tables are you friend to help get the air flow dialed in which will keep the ECM from using timing to swing the idle back and forth.

  7. #7
    Senior Tuner TheMechanic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    1,533
    Quote Originally Posted by cadillactech View Post
    Yes he is spot on with this thread. Your fuel smell is mostly due to the stock EOIT tables you have and large overlap values for the cam you have. You are pushing fuel straight out the exhaust during the overlap period of the cam. If there is no catalyst then you are going to have some fuel smell no matter what.

    Didn't look at your cam specs but you will most likely need to retard injection timing at idle to make sure it starts after the exhaust valve closes. Reversion in the cylinder can also literally suck your fuel charge right out of the intake port into the exhaust at idle during overlap and sometimes even at lower RPMs. At higher RPMs you can start to change how you modify the EOIT versus how you do at idle.

    There are a few calculators out there(in that posted thread there is at least one good one) to put your cam specs in and get a pretty close value for the EOIT tables but it helps to be on a dyno too as you can pick up power and watching torque increase as you change these tables is the easiest way to confirm you are going in the right direction. Obviously if the fuel smell is getting better that can show you that you are making the right changes as well if you want to play with it on the street.

    Idle timing swing is also something to address. Proportional and integral idle air tables are you friend to help get the air flow dialed in which will keep the ECM from using timing to swing the idle back and forth.
    As others have mentioned in the threads there isn't a good amount of direction on what advance and retard means. If it is like ignition timing retarded is late or adding degrees on the wheel. Advanced is making the event happen earlier/lower degree number. Problem I see is confusion over what the terms are. Also a bit of confusion due to a lack of explaining what each value you enter in the below xls in yellow and where to put the output values in the various tables. Anyone have a manual on this xls and what it can do for a big cam and its comparative values with a stock cam would be greatly appreciated.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  8. #8
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    329
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMechanic View Post
    As others have mentioned in the threads there isn't a good amount of direction on what advance and retard means. If it is like ignition timing retarded is late or adding degrees on the wheel. Advanced is making the event happen earlier/lower degree number. Problem I see is confusion over what the terms are. Also a bit of confusion due to a lack of explaining what each value you enter in the below xls in yellow and where to put the output values in the various tables. Anyone have a manual on this xls and what it can do for a big cam and its comparative values with a stock cam would be greatly appreciated.
    Anytime you retard something in regards to the engine cycle, you are making it happen later in the engine cycle.
    Retarded spark timing happens closer to TDC of the compression stroke or later in the compression stroke. Retarding injection timing means you start to inject fuel later in the intake stroke(though sometimes you are injecting during the tail end of the exhaust stroke or the beginning of the compression stroke depending on what type of injection system you have).

    .

  9. #9
    Tuner in Training Bigred1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    OC, California
    Posts
    40
    Quote Originally Posted by old4door View Post
    https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...ance-Requested

    This thread will help greatly with getting your injector timing correct for your cam. Cuts down a bunch on the fuel smell when you get it nailed down.
    Quote Originally Posted by cadillactech View Post
    Yes he is spot on with this thread. Your fuel smell is mostly due to the stock EOIT tables you have and large overlap values for the cam you have. You are pushing fuel straight out the exhaust during the overlap period of the cam. If there is no catalyst then you are going to have some fuel smell no matter what.

    Didn't look at your cam specs but you will most likely need to retard injection timing at idle to make sure it starts after the exhaust valve closes. Reversion in the cylinder can also literally suck your fuel charge right out of the intake port into the exhaust at idle during overlap and sometimes even at lower RPMs. At higher RPMs you can start to change how you modify the EOIT versus how you do at idle.

    There are a few calculators out there(in that posted thread there is at least one good one) to put your cam specs in and get a pretty close value for the EOIT tables but it helps to be on a dyno too as you can pick up power and watching torque increase as you change these tables is the easiest way to confirm you are going in the right direction. Obviously if the fuel smell is getting better that can show you that you are making the right changes as well if you want to play with it on the street.

    Idle timing swing is also something to address. Proportional and integral idle air tables are you friend to help get the air flow dialed in which will keep the ECM from using timing to swing the idle back and forth.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMechanic View Post
    As others have mentioned in the threads there isn't a good amount of direction on what advance and retard means. If it is like ignition timing retarded is late or adding degrees on the wheel. Advanced is making the event happen earlier/lower degree number. Problem I see is confusion over what the terms are. Also a bit of confusion due to a lack of explaining what each value you enter in the below xls in yellow and where to put the output values in the various tables. Anyone have a manual on this xls and what it can do for a big cam and its comparative values with a stock cam would be greatly appreciated.
    Quote Originally Posted by cadillactech View Post
    Anytime you retard something in regards to the engine cycle, you are making it happen later in the engine cycle.
    Retarded spark timing happens closer to TDC of the compression stroke or later in the compression stroke. Retarding injection timing means you start to inject fuel later in the intake stroke(though sometimes you are injecting during the tail end of the exhaust stroke or the beginning of the compression stroke depending on what type of injection system you have).

    .
    Thank you all for the responses! will the rest of the tune need to be tweaked and changed if I changed some of the EOIT at idle?

    You guys rock!
    Machine Silver 08 C6z: AHP stage 4 CNC heads, CMS Stage 4 Cam, Longtubes, AHP Ported MSD intake, Vararam snake charmer intake, NW 103, BBE fusion and ID1050X's
    Victory Red 08 C6z: Heads, custom Cam, Longtubes, Ported Fast 102, Corsa Exhaust, Haltech intake - Sold

  10. #10
    Tuner in Training Bigred1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    OC, California
    Posts
    40
    I had to double my IVT's back to stock. I had a weird low throttle surge/bucking from halving the IVT terms for some reason. happened at light throttle cruise control at 80 in 6th around 1700 RPM. I doubled them back tot stock and it seems to have fixed that issue. I never noticed that surging before I halved my IVT's.
    Machine Silver 08 C6z: AHP stage 4 CNC heads, CMS Stage 4 Cam, Longtubes, AHP Ported MSD intake, Vararam snake charmer intake, NW 103, BBE fusion and ID1050X's
    Victory Red 08 C6z: Heads, custom Cam, Longtubes, Ported Fast 102, Corsa Exhaust, Haltech intake - Sold

  11. #11
    Senior Tuner Lakegoat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,424
    When you half the IVT Terms, you will need to retune. Sounds like it was tuned without the half ivt, now it would need to be tuned with the half ivt. What did you wind up with for EOIT ?
    2000 Camaro SS 2015 L83 port injected, Whipple 3.0, 4L80E, 8.8 Ford
    2013 Silverado 5.3, 6L80k 8.8

  12. #12
    Tuner in Training Bigred1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    OC, California
    Posts
    40
    Ahh okay do you know exactly what the IVT terms effect?? Yeah my tuner tuned the car with them no halved it looks like. So I doubled them back to stock to help with the issue. I took the car a quick trip on the freeway and that slight bucking/surging while cruising at light throttle seemed to have fixed things.

    Regarding my EOIT I am still working on that. There?s a lot of information I need to go through and process and study. Other then Reading those posts do you have any advice?

  13. #13
    Senior Tuner Lakegoat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,424
    I plugged my numbers into the chart above and came out with my results, which are confusing to me, after I read the documents and directions. Maybe I just need to re read.
    The boundary numbers never changed from what was in the xl originally. And where do you plug in the soi and eoi numbers? This is for an E40, so maybe I don't have that option?
    Last edited by Lakegoat; 07-25-2021 at 01:42 PM.
    2000 Camaro SS 2015 L83 port injected, Whipple 3.0, 4L80E, 8.8 Ford
    2013 Silverado 5.3, 6L80k 8.8

  14. #14
    Tuner in Training Bigred1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    OC, California
    Posts
    40
    Quote Originally Posted by Lakegoat View Post
    I plugged my numbers into the chart above and came out with my results, which are confusing to me, after I read the documents and directions. Maybe I just need to re read.
    The boundary numbers never changed from what was in the xl originally. And where do you plug in the soi and eoi numbers? This is for an E40, so maybe I don't have that option?
    I have a E38 (being a C6z) and I might be missing those tables also. I filled out the table best of my abilities and I think I messed something up cause some of the outputs are super jacked up. I don?t have my Cam specs at .006 unfortunately only at .050. I hit up the manufacturer so maybe I?ll get that data. Is someone who knows what?s up willing to take a peek at the excel sheet and see if I completely fubared it?

  15. #15
    Tuner in Training Bigred1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    OC, California
    Posts
    40
    Attached is my current tune and the excel sheet filled out with the information i could find. Can someone in the know take a peek?

    0000 LSA INJECTOR TIMING TOOL GEN IV.xlsx
    Silver 2008 C6 Z06 Updated 7-18-21 - Rev 3.hpt
    Last edited by Bigred1; 07-26-2021 at 10:21 AM.
    Machine Silver 08 C6z: AHP stage 4 CNC heads, CMS Stage 4 Cam, Longtubes, AHP Ported MSD intake, Vararam snake charmer intake, NW 103, BBE fusion and ID1050X's
    Victory Red 08 C6z: Heads, custom Cam, Longtubes, Ported Fast 102, Corsa Exhaust, Haltech intake - Sold