TIMING RAMP @ WOT : 2016 Mustang GT M6 GT350 Manifold and TB with Airaid intake

[TurboDoug]

Hey guys, recently did a GT350 mani and tb swap on my GF's 2016 M6. Dialed in maf vs period for intake, used the gt350tb info in necessary areas, retained gt imrc settings, used Bullitt torque model values, and also set this up as a flex fuel tune. The car honestly runs pretty solid with minimal jerking under low load/part throttle. The only thing I can't seem to figure out at this point is why upon wot timing slowly ramps from 18-19* up to 26* or so. Logs say it is following borderline mostly, but I've modified the borderline tables for more timing (within reason). It just feels sluggish after shifts until it hits decent timing again. Tip in control is not active, torque control/protection is all maxed out. I do see a small area where it hits torque control once shifted into 3rd gear. Could this be something with the torque model going on? Maybe enabling hdfx OP and having it target only that MP at wot would help, but shouldn't be necessary. I logged MAF lb/min in another log and it's showing up to about 51lb/min once everything lines out up top. Throttle angle isn't closing, so something is commanding spark retard even though I seem to have covered all my bases. Any help is appreciated. I'll attach file and log along with screenshot of the area in question. Thanks, Doug.
TorLU47injAiraidIntakeGT350IMandTB-GOOD-FLEXtest-torquefaulttesting-bullitttorquetables.hpt
tor350v7-evenmoeclosah.hpl
Screenshot (2)_LI.jpg

[Plimmer]

Couple things to try:
You should log Borderline Knock and MBT Advance. For each mapped point you should be able to reconcile Borderline Knock + KR = Timing Advance. It won't be exact, but it should be pretty close. If its not close, then something else is adjusting timing, and you'll need to figure it out.
MBT Advance allows you to see how close you are getting to the max timing you want.

Your Tip In Retard is very high, try 2 degrees for all points.
Lastly, some might not agree with me here, but make your MBT tables close to the target timing you want. Then make the Borderline Knock say 2 degrees lower. So if MBT is 28deg make the same point on the Borderline Knock 25deg or 26deg. Do this at loads of .80 and higher. This should get you the timing you want faster.

You can also change the retard recovery rates, so timing is added more agressively

[TurboDoug]

Thanks for the input Plimmer! I reduced tip-in as well as modified the recovery rates. I think the recovery rate might be where I had the issue. Changing to higher degree increase per process. I'll test and try again later. As far as the borderline vs MBT tables, I agree with you. I believe mine are setup that way in MP14+ (tip-in and wot range). I'll have her car again later this afternoon to test out. something else weird that i noticed on this revision...the car will learn alc content and adjust stoich on the display once the stft report long enough, but under wot conditions it still stays in stoich fuel source instead of power enrich. For now, I have gone back to the 93 map just to figure out the timing dip and revisit the flex once i get this one issue resolved. Any input on the flex situation? I set up the ethanol % vs AFR table in a more linear/realistic % instead of basically on/off ethanol. Same with the closed loop blend area. more linear instead of on/off. Could this be why it's confused what stoich is at wot? Maybe it never technically "locked" the learned stoich, so it's just floating somewhere in the middle still learning?

[Plimmer]

Don’t know much about flex. I just use a dedicated e85 only tune. A few times I run low and an e85 station isn’t nearby I’ll add a little 93 to get me to the next e85 station. The fuel trims adjust for the blend change.

[Bill88stang]

You didnt have to change torque model , you can look at the ford racing pp3 file in the repository for some ideas on spark tables. you can also use the throttle body data for it.

[Thatwhite5.0]

You also need to use the GT350's ETC Idle Airflow table.

Your torque tables look to be set too high for your set up and combination of cam angles you have in your file. I'd recommend using your stock torque/inverse tables or in the bullitt's file. Airflow > Variable Camshaft. Copy the tables below "Mapped Points" and "Distance Tables" in bold letters. Mappped Points configurations, snap to point, all of thoses tables down to Exhaust Valve closing. Under Distance Tables, Best Drivability all the way down to Manual Launch. Those 16 tables control the operation of the cam shafts. The angles of the cams at a given RPM and Load. The torque tables are tuned for these tables. The torque and air flow all depend on the condition the cars seeing at a specific RPM and load. Example. Your torque tables could be tuned at 2500 RPM .4 load to have cam angles IVO 20 EVC 50 but your variable cam tables are running a more efficient IVO 40 EVC 40.
Use stock torque tables or try these tables. A bullitt is a N/A 5.0 right? The distance tables should work. All though I do not like how the inverse table axis is scaled skipping 111 ft lbs. The axis being skipped is right where you're having issues at idle causing your logs to show you idling at .4 load 90 ft lbs.

[Bill88stang]

Yes sir the bullitt is n/a coyote but it’s a gen 3.

[TurboDoug]

Thanks for the input guys. Work got pretty busy this past week, but I'm getting back on testing tonight. I went back to factory torque tables. the bullitt tables were a test file while trying a few things. Once i make some headway, I'll post updated logs/files.

[TurboDoug]

Ok guys, just a quick update. Basically started back from the original file I made before all the flex fuel/bullitt tables (will revisit flex once this issue is resolved). I used the gt350 idle table as suggested bc I seemed to have overlooked that before (thanks for the heads up). The log I have attached shows idle back down in the mid 0.1xx range with the a/c OFF. With a/c ON the air load goes back up (as expected) to that .3xx range, even though that does seems a touch on the high side. I took a decent amount of time to dial in the MAF vs Period and it is mostly within the 3% range ltft/stft across the board according to the logs (minus decel areas). With all that being said, I'm still getting spark source (torque control) at the beginning of gears after gear changes (mostly in 3rd and/or 4th gear). It is not picking up knock, but still drops timing all the way to 5* and slowly ramps back up. I thought I got most of the limiters removed in both torque management and trans side of things, as well as some of the spark torque ratio cut tables, but I have clearly missed something. Any other input on what I'm missing here?? Any guidance is welcome/appreciated.
TorLU47AiraidIntGT350IMandTB-StartingOver-MAFDialed-veryclose.hpt
torgt350combo-startingoverloganddrive4-mafveryclose.hpl

Screenshot (3)_LI.jpg

[Bill88stang]

No need to change torque tables on this n/a set up you can use your stock torque tables. There is a pp3 file in repose that can help you

[TurboDoug]

Bill, these aren't changed. I set them back to stock after trying that one file.

[Bill88stang]

i apologize sir i must have missed that part

[Thatwhite5.0]

Where did you get your gt350 file from? I only ask because the idle airflow model you posted does not have a smooth function.

A few things you can do. Disable Tip-in. There's a switch you have to set to "0" in Airflow > General and another switch you have to "Disable" in Airflow > Electronic Throttle.
There's Tip In location in Spark Torque Ratio that's allowing it to reduce as much torque as it wants/needs.

Increase Exhaust Gas Temp, table 44557. Increase high load, high rpm x 1.2.

You're hitting SparkiTip out limit as well, during the clutch process. I usually lower timing at low loads in the correct tables. Tip out comes into happens when timing advances up around 45 to 55 degrees, like during your shift at low loads, then you hit WOT instantly so you get spark tip in causing timing limits and torque request limits. I'd try the adjustments before this one first or update .

[Thatwhite5.0]

Also you need to increase your max map. You might be able to disable exhaust temp protection in 35991 and 35993

[TurboDoug]

Just an update on this...Thanks for the advice ThatWhite5.0. I had actually gone through and turned off Tip-in under airflow tab to disabled at some point. Also, I did longtubes on her car this past weekend, so cat/exhaust prot is all disabled now. Just saw your reply this weekend and took your advice on the spark ratio torque table. I actually flashed them all to 1's one at a time to test and hopefully find which area it was limiting. The only time i could get it to go away was after flashing every single one in the map to 1's and doing the Write Entire instead of write calibration only. It went away for one pull 2nd-5th gear, then came right back again on the second attempt. I feel like this is a hint at what's going on, but still cant seem to pinpoint it. I also went through and lowered all low-load areas (.10-.20) down to 15*borderline map and mbt 20* in hopes of resolving the possible tipout you referenced. once again, it was still present and killed timing down to 16-17* from the 23-25* in the gear prior. I did attempt one more thing that could be another clue. I made a pull from 3rd into 4th. 3rd gear targeted the borderline/mbt map as expected. 4th gear directly upon the gear change did the drop that we're trying to resolve, so i quickly let out of the throttle for a split second and then stabbed back into it and BAM, it hit 23-25* and stayed there. Soooo, possibly only something it is seeing during gear changes and not just throttle actuation?? Maybe something will ring a bell. Thanks again to anybody that could chime in on this.

[Plimmer]

Might need to post a tune and log. Do you still have AntiShuffle enabled? If yes, turn it off, and try again. Also disable any transmission torque protection

[TurboDoug]

Hi Plimmer, Anti-shuffle is off. Has been through quite a few of my attempts now. Trans/clutch/gearbox prot all disabled/maxed out. I'll attach the most recent test file as well as log/SS of the area were i shifted, hit tq control for spark, let out, got back into it and then it went back to borderline/base/mbt.

TORFBOTryingCrap-BullittThrottleBodyModel-moreMafchanges-someSPRKTQRED1s.hpt
TORFBOTryingCrap-Bullitt&ricardoThrottleBodyValues-sprktqrat1s-TRYINGSOMETHINGDIFFERENT-KINDAWOR.hpl
Screenshot (5).png