Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 82

Thread: Soler 107mm TB idle tuning

  1. #61
    Senior Tuner
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    South FL
    Posts
    1,359
    Quote Originally Posted by radz28 View Post
    Was this a new TB from Soler or did you get one of the existing ones cooperating?
    So this was actually TB #4 on ZL1 Alpha. We never rolled the tune back when the customer took off TB #1 and put on TB #4. Mike shipped TB #5 and the customer and I decided to normalize the tune with #4 on the car to get a log of before and after. We had never run the normal idle tune on ZL1 Alpha with TB #4. Anyhow, on the normal tune TB #4 is perfect. We swapped to TB #5 and it was not as good. #5 was still acceptable with +2 to +6 degrees of timing but we decided to go back to #4 where the timing was always greater than 4 degrees.
    [email protected]
    Owner/GM Calibrator
    Gen V Specialist - C7 Corvette, Gen6 Camaro & CTS-V3

  2. #62
    Okay, folks. Problem solved. The TB's needed to be relearned. They were simply doing exactly as told by the ECM using data learned from the previous TB. See the log attached, this is one of the TB's TriPinTaz has been trying to tune. It was negative at the beginning, TriPinTaz brought it to single-digit positive spark, and now after the reset and relearn it came to +20 deg.

    Before doing any login or tuning, please have the customer install and do the following:

    1. Disconnect battery negative for 5 min. Then reconnect.
    2. Start and let idle 3 min.
    3. Engine off 1 min.
    4. Idle 3 more min.
    5. Engine off another min.
    6. Drive at 44mph or greater, come to a stop and let idle, do that a few times.
    7. Engine off 1 min.

    Thanks!

    Screenshot 2021-10-01 095433.gif
    Last edited by Mike@SolerEngr; 10-01-2021 at 10:28 AM.
    Mike,
    Soler Performance LLC.
    [email protected]
    www.solerengineering.com
    (727) 667-9225

  3. #63
    Thanks, lt1z350. From what I can see all those are copies of each other. Don't go by the looks, I can tell you ours is flowing 1700 scfm at 20.4" H2O, the maximum I have seen from any competitor doesn't make it to 1500 scfm.
    Mike,
    Soler Performance LLC.
    [email protected]
    www.solerengineering.com
    (727) 667-9225

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by BDPhoto519 View Post
    I am having the same negative timing issues with my Katech 103mm. Oddly enough over the past few days the timing seems to be slowly creeping back at idle on its own.

    It was idling at +1 or +2 at first now its worked its way up to around +10/+12.

    Kind of strange. VTT changes had zero effect on it as well.
    Makes sense, the ECM is slowly learning the TB and updating the idle cells.
    Mike,
    Soler Performance LLC.
    [email protected]
    www.solerengineering.com
    (727) 667-9225

  5. #65
    So, it seems that anytime a new throttle body is swapped out from stock, this should be the first procedure completed.

    Even better, I wonder if idle tuning is most effectively achieved by doing this relearn procedure first, before modifying any VT tables.

    Out of curiosity, are the TB positions at idle (users noted different throttle plate positions when swapping between different TBs) stored within the TB itself or the ECM? Or does each TB report slightly different voltages, resulting in a different throttle position % read by the ECM?
    Last edited by Haans249; 10-01-2021 at 12:05 PM.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Haans249 View Post
    So, it seems that anytime a new throttle body is swapped out from stock, this should be the first procedure completed.

    Even better, I wonder if idle tuning is most effectively achieved by doing this relearn procedure first, before modifying any VT tables.

    Out of curiosity, are the TB positions at idle (users noted different throttle plate positions when swapping between different TBs) stored within the TB itself or the ECM? Or does each TB report slightly different voltages, resulting in a different throttle position % read by the ECM?
    Yes, by all means, do the relearn before tuning, the idle values changed dramatically after the relearn. There's a chance you do not have to do any idle tuning, or very little if any.

    The TB data is stored in the ECM. The TB only spits out position.

    All TB's have different full close, home, and fully open positions. They also have different inertias, springs, and damping constants, and motor characteristics. Also, different airflows. The most important thing is the linearity of the sensor, with that, once it knows the zero and the home (two points) and the electromechanical parameters, it can accurately shoot for a desired area/airflow.

    So yes, maybe when you had the stock TB it was idling at 6% with i.e. 20% motor duty cycle and sensor1 4.3v sensor2 .7v, once you put a 103 and learns it, it might idle at 3% with different duty cycles and voltages. But if the ECM tries to idle with the 103 with what it learned from the 87 or whatever was there before, then the flow is greater (too much torque) and it pulls timing to achieve the desired rpm's.
    Mike,
    Soler Performance LLC.
    [email protected]
    www.solerengineering.com
    (727) 667-9225

  7. #67
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Central, LA
    Posts
    737
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike@SolerEngr View Post
    Okay, folks. Problem solved. The TB's needed to be relearned. They were simply doing exactly as told by the ECM using data learned from the previous TB. See the log attached, this is one of the TB's TriPinTaz has been trying to tune. It was negative at the beginning, TriPinTaz brought it to single-digit positive spark, and now after the reset and relearn it came to +20 deg.

    Before doing any login or tuning, please have the customer install and do the following:

    1. Disconnect battery negative for 5 min. Then reconnect.
    2. Start and let idle 3 min.
    3. Engine off 1 min.
    4. Idle 3 more min.
    5. Engine off another min.
    6. Drive at 44mph or greater, come to a stop and let idle, do that a few times.
    7. Engine off 1 min.

    Thanks!

    Screenshot 2021-10-01 095433.gif
    So this procedure is different from using the throttle cleaned button in the scanner?

  8. #68
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    329
    Quote Originally Posted by sevinn View Post
    So this procedure is different from using the throttle cleaned button in the scanner?
    I have limited success with the button learn. GM says do to reset first,if it fails, follow the more lengthy procedure above. I always skip that and just do the long learn procedrue.

    Glad this works with the Solers!

  9. #69
    Senior Tuner
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    South FL
    Posts
    1,359
    I can say that one of the guys stuck with the 107, we got everything worked out but it DID require a tune to make it happy. But now he's putting a hurting on guys in Mexico with it.

    Mike, I'll respond to your email soon, I'm not ignoring you. It's been really busy.
    Last edited by TriPinTaZ; 10-03-2021 at 10:21 AM.
    [email protected]
    Owner/GM Calibrator
    Gen V Specialist - C7 Corvette, Gen6 Camaro & CTS-V3

  10. #70
    Necro'd... - but it works. I just tried this with the newest version, and timing went back into positive, about where it was. It ran up there before I even got to driving. No adjustments to the tune, either - might need some MAF-polishing, but not in terms of idle adjustments.

  11. #71
    Senior Tuner Ben Charles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Calibrating
    Posts
    3,371
    MAF adjusting is Tq model adjusting, which tq controls idle.
    The higher flowing throttle body lets in more air the is anticipated so the computer pulls spark to lower airflow.

    Email Tunes, [email protected]
    96 TA Blown/Stroked, 4L80E/Fab 9
    15 C7 A8 H/C 2.3 Blower/PI
    14 Gen 5 Viper
    Custom Mid Engine chassis, AKA GalBen C

  12. #72
    Advanced Tuner lt1z350's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Dandridge, TN
    Posts
    560
    So I had mike send me a throttle body that had been on more then one car apparently and been deep negative timing on them and they were not able to get any kind of good results on it. I removed my granetelli installed the Soler and it idled at -4 to +2 down from 15 to 18 on the other. So I did what I always do on cars I tune I did the relearn and it came up to around 8 so down some from the normal 103mm. 15-18. Car was a little lean and idle torque had changed. So once I did the normal adjustments to it I was idling at 12-14 in one tune adjustment. This was a throttle body that no one could get correct and was deemed as ?bad?
    At first watching logs in real time I thought it at a tps problem as the tps fluctuated a lot.it had a lot of weird ticks while logging. But when I watched my log after I saw it wasn?t doing it in the replays. It moved a little but so does my other one.
    Any time you increase airflow it?s going to change how the car idles and will need to be adjusted. This throttle body lowering the timing shows that it has an increase in airflow vrs a standard 103mm. 9-10 times when a vehicle is being worked on heavy mods say ported blower or heads cam the cars battery is disconnected. So car goes through a relearn and most don?t know it so goes back to somewhat of a normal idle. But I?m sure on a Throttle body swap no one is disconnecting the battery.
    I have swapped to 112mm and 120mm tb on cars done a relearn and had timing be acceptable and only need a slight adjustment. Common sense says do a relearn as it?s there for when you just clean carbon from a stock throttle body. I do believe that also depends on how the tune is setup. I always shoot for stock idle torque around 0 to -10 on my tunes which then give a bigger window on how much things can affect idle. I see some logs people have it idle at 30-80 torque and it idles with almost no timing. Simply lowering the eq torque table in the idle region can easily fix it.

    But back to this ?bad? throttle body. With a relearn and proper adjustment I was able to make it idle great and it drives excellent on my personal setup which has a extremely radical blower port on it something no one has done yet which has modified rotors in it to increase airflow. Unfortunately weather has me to the point I?m at a stand still but in the process of testing some things including the throttle body wot airflow vrs the normal 103mm to see if has a power gain. But now so cold roads so slick I can?t hook to test anything at moment. Recently put each brick on its own hx inlet by adding a second a second 3/4 inlet to my c&r hx and added a 1 inch outlet to match the 1 inch hose to the ice tank. So far up 1.5 gpm on the flow meter so expect a good increase in recovery off throttle. My system is currently 14 gpm vrs 5 when was on stock pump and larger hx setup and it?s night and day on how heat goes up and down on a high spun stock blower. Always trying to do better go faster on what we got to work with currently.

  13. #73
    Senior Tuner
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    South FL
    Posts
    1,359
    Part of my frustrations turned out to be the end user not actually doing all of the idle relearn steps that Mike had requested. The car has been great until recently where it lost the relearn and he's having to go through it again. I noticed that if you read the ECU codes when you have deep negative idle timing, this car shows a code that claims idle relearn was not completed. It persists through quite a few engine run time events. You WILL have to tune for a larger throttle body if you have massive changes in airflow with max porting the blower and pulleys. But I can revisit this thread and confirm the 107mm is a viable option. But you will need to manage the relearn procedure. If the battery gets pulled you will have to do it again.

    Thanks to Mike for personally working with us to get this solved.
    [email protected]
    Owner/GM Calibrator
    Gen V Specialist - C7 Corvette, Gen6 Camaro & CTS-V3

  14. #74
    Thanks, everyone.

    Very important you ask customers to do the relearn before logging data for you to tune, or if you have the car on-site please let it relearn before making changes. I think most times it won't be necessary while other times it will need a touch...and this is true for 95mm's as well, we have seen them idle negative initially and come back to positive on their own. Take it on a case-by-case basis, as setups will differ widely. Here are some logs from a customer so you can see the learning progression over time.

    Notice the trend of spark vs. time during the constant ~600 rpm periods. How it came from - spark initially and ended with + spark at the end at a rate of about 0.5 degrees per minute.

    1st Idle Learn.gif

    2nd Idle Learn.gif
    Mike,
    Soler Performance LLC.
    [email protected]
    www.solerengineering.com
    (727) 667-9225

  15. #75
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Central, LA
    Posts
    737
    I'll try mine out this week. Been so busy but it's time to give it a shot.

  16. #76
    Senior Tuner
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    South FL
    Posts
    1,359
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike@SolerEngr View Post
    Thanks, everyone.

    Very important you ask customers to do the relearn before logging data for you to tune, or if you have the car on-site please let it relearn before making changes. I think most times it won't be necessary while other times it will need a touch...and this is true for 95mm's as well, we have seen them idle negative initially and come back to positive on their own. Take it on a case-by-case basis, as setups will differ widely. Here are some logs from a customer so you can see the learning progression over time.

    Notice the trend of spark vs. time during the constant ~600 rpm periods. How it came from - spark initially and ended with + spark at the end at a rate of about 0.5 degrees per minute.

    1st Idle Learn.gif

    2nd Idle Learn.gif

    I have a theory that depending on how much the airflow changes due to other mods, you may need to tune the idle area "in the ballpark" to allow the relearn procedure to complete. If that is too far off the relearn will never happen regardless if it is a 95mm, 103mm or your 107mm. And I don't think this is exclusive to the Soler unit at all, it can happen to any unit. The reasoning here is that when the car in question actually learned the idle and timing went positive, it went too far positive so I undid much of my idle torque changes to get the idle timing back in the upper teens. The car has been perfect since. But now that we lost the idle relearn, it will not relearn again. So comparing files when it DID relearn, it had different idle torque settings. To test this whole though process, I sent the user a file last night to pull idle torque calculations down again in hopes to close the throttle blade a little more. I think it may then be able to complete the learning process.

    This is all a theory in the works that we are testing now. Don't take any of the above as gospel. I'll update as I get more info. I'm waiting on the user to load the file and re-start the relearn procedure that you have outlined.
    Last edited by TriPinTaZ; 02-07-2022 at 01:46 PM.
    [email protected]
    Owner/GM Calibrator
    Gen V Specialist - C7 Corvette, Gen6 Camaro & CTS-V3

  17. #77
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Central, LA
    Posts
    737
    Put mine on tonight and did the relearn. Seemed to work but I'm going to have to do more tuning on the car as I'm getting some hanging throttle and a little bit of surge on startup. Nothing I can't handle though.

    TriPinTaZ are you finding that the relearn needs to be done every flash?

  18. #78
    Senior Tuner
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    South FL
    Posts
    1,359
    Quote Originally Posted by sevinn View Post
    Put mine on tonight and did the relearn. Seemed to work but I'm going to have to do more tuning on the car as I'm getting some hanging throttle and a little bit of surge on startup. Nothing I can't handle though.

    TriPinTaZ are you finding that the relearn needs to be done every flash?
    Not in my experience so far with the 107. Once the ECU completes the learn process it sticks until the battery is pulled.
    [email protected]
    Owner/GM Calibrator
    Gen V Specialist - C7 Corvette, Gen6 Camaro & CTS-V3

  19. #79
    Senior Tuner eficalibrator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Detroit
    Posts
    1,023
    A few key points from an experience OEM torque control calibration engineer, if I may...

    Throttle bodies are an example of compressible flow. It's not as simple as some people think. The best, complete definition can be found in Appendix C of Heywood's textbook available here. In particular, figure C-3 shows the VERY nonlinear relationship between pressure ratio and mass flow rate below the choke flow point (0.528 PT/p0 as mentioned previously).

    Somewhere inside the ECU, there is a table/model that correlates blade angle and effective throttle area. If you have a different throttle body (ported, larger, whatever) then this should be adjusted. Unfortunately, we don't always have access to this table in our limited tuning software. (The Ford guys using HPT do though, go figure) This effective area bakes in the nonlinearity and makes it easier for the ECU to resolve a desired mass flow to a specific blade angle for that throttle body's geometry.

    In GM vehicles, we have access to a single max throttle area scalar. Moving this number up for a larger throttle body works ONLY if the new throttle is an exact scaled up version of the stock geometry. If the aftermarket throttle manufacturer makes a larger bore, but plays games to make the low throttle positions "just like stock", this breaks the predicted relationship between low blade angles and effective flow area. A throttle relearn helps a little, but you still have a physical mismatch between ECU calibration and the hardware on the engine. You will always be chasing some error here and hoping the learns can drag it in line. Personally, I won't waste time trying to calibrate these unless I had access to both the ECU throttle area tables and complete flow bench data that resolves effective throttle area (like we do on the popular Ford throttle bodies).

    By comparison, if one makes a larger throttle body that is simply scaled up, then all you need to do to calibrate it properly is adjust the max area scalar. No other learn is necessary because the ECU calibration now matches the hardware. I have done this with success before.

    Any time you see large negative timing adjustments at idle, it's a symptom that the actual airflow is higher than desired. If the throttle body is leaving too much actual effective flow area open, actual airflow will be greater. It doesn't matter if you "tuned" the MAF or VVE to "fix" this, it's still happening. That "fix" would also have your idle fuel trims walking away from reality too, not great. Running very negative timing also erodes the range of available torque control for negative idle corrections (overspeed events), which becomes a circular problem. It also opens the door for poor combustion quality, incomplete burns, erratic O2 readings, and poor emissions.

    From a calibrator's stand point, the proper solution is to have all aspects of the calibration follow the physics of the hardware. This means that both MAF and VVE should be independently accurate to actual airflow and the throttle body model must match the hardware on the engine without any nonlinear deviations. Anything else sets you up for chasing your tail and depending upon learned trims to adjust for calibration errors. A proper calibration and hardware match requires basically zero idle trims, just like when we get the fueling right and see only small STFT/LTFT adjustments.

  20. #80
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Central, LA
    Posts
    737
    Quote Originally Posted by eficalibrator View Post
    A few key points from an experience OEM torque control calibration engineer, if I may...

    Throttle bodies are an example of compressible flow. It's not as simple as some people think. The best, complete definition can be found in Appendix C of Heywood's textbook available here. In particular, figure C-3 shows the VERY nonlinear relationship between pressure ratio and mass flow rate below the choke flow point (0.528 PT/p0 as mentioned previously).

    Somewhere inside the ECU, there is a table/model that correlates blade angle and effective throttle area. If you have a different throttle body (ported, larger, whatever) then this should be adjusted. Unfortunately, we don't always have access to this table in our limited tuning software. (The Ford guys using HPT do though, go figure) This effective area bakes in the nonlinearity and makes it easier for the ECU to resolve a desired mass flow to a specific blade angle for that throttle body's geometry.

    In GM vehicles, we have access to a single max throttle area scalar. Moving this number up for a larger throttle body works ONLY if the new throttle is an exact scaled up version of the stock geometry. If the aftermarket throttle manufacturer makes a larger bore, but plays games to make the low throttle positions "just like stock", this breaks the predicted relationship between low blade angles and effective flow area. A throttle relearn helps a little, but you still have a physical mismatch between ECU calibration and the hardware on the engine. You will always be chasing some error here and hoping the learns can drag it in line. Personally, I won't waste time trying to calibrate these unless I had access to both the ECU throttle area tables and complete flow bench data that resolves effective throttle area (like we do on the popular Ford throttle bodies).

    By comparison, if one makes a larger throttle body that is simply scaled up, then all you need to do to calibrate it properly is adjust the max area scalar. No other learn is necessary because the ECU calibration now matches the hardware. I have done this with success before.

    Any time you see large negative timing adjustments at idle, it's a symptom that the actual airflow is higher than desired. If the throttle body is leaving too much actual effective flow area open, actual airflow will be greater. It doesn't matter if you "tuned" the MAF or VVE to "fix" this, it's still happening. That "fix" would also have your idle fuel trims walking away from reality too, not great. Running very negative timing also erodes the range of available torque control for negative idle corrections (overspeed events), which becomes a circular problem. It also opens the door for poor combustion quality, incomplete burns, erratic O2 readings, and poor emissions.

    From a calibrator's stand point, the proper solution is to have all aspects of the calibration follow the physics of the hardware. This means that both MAF and VVE should be independently accurate to actual airflow and the throttle body model must match the hardware on the engine without any nonlinear deviations. Anything else sets you up for chasing your tail and depending upon learned trims to adjust for calibration errors. A proper calibration and hardware match requires basically zero idle trims, just like when we get the fueling right and see only small STFT/LTFT adjustments.
    This is all fine and dandy, and I agree with you 100% but as you also stated we just simply don't have access to everything so compromises have to come somewhere. If we had direct control of the blade area with an airflow table all this would be a non issue.