Yes I noted the sarcasm for sureOriginally Posted by smokeshow
I hope the sarcasm was notedThe post from Soler looks like a lot of hype. If they found that it behaves like stock and runs smoothly on a stock cal, I might question what standards that is evaluated to before believing the claim.
My car was used to test the prototype 107 mm throttle bodies. I heard they were talking about making them so I called up and asked if they needed a tester and they wanted a car with a ported blower with an opened up snout so that's how I ended up with it. I don't know them personally but Mike there seems to be a nice guy.
It is a newly manufactured CNC part, not a ported core or anything like it seems like a commenter was asking. Like was also noted, it is a 103 mm bore, with a milled shaft that allows it to achieve the effective flow of 107 mm.
Before bolting the throttle body on, I contacted my tuner who all of you know and is very respected in making and tuning fuel injection systems and he said I should be able to bolt the throttle body on and run the car without any additional tuning (was running a stock throttle body). That is what I did and the car runs fine with no weird issues. Soler also simply bolted one up to their c7 with no tuning and told me the car has been running fine. If you want to be really particular, there is a very slight almost unnoticeable surge when driving around town at slow cruising speed. Having a passenger in the car they don't even notice it but I do. It has been working well for me and I have been happy with it. I just have to take the car to the dyno and see if it is actually adding horsepower.
I don't have a lot of experience with tuning and I'm not trying to insult anyone's intelligence here on the matter because you are probably more knowledgeable than I. My tuner, Soler's experience, and my own experience have all lined up with no tuning required. Hope this information will help steer things in the right direction.
What changes are in your tune that affect idle area vs OEM and were in place before the 107?
If I remember correctly, when comparing the stock tune file to the new one I don't believe there were any changes in the idle area. I won't be back at my computer until late tonight to confirm. If there is a certain place you would like me to look let me know and I can do so.
My car is just a full bolt on. It still has stock cam, fuel system, and blower.
Any changes in the Idle Tab (Torque), Virtual Torque, VVE, Dynamic Airflow, Dynamic Airflow Predictions, MAF, MBT spark where in the idle operation range?
Don?t have experience with Soler tb?s or ZL1?s, although my application happens to be a L83 (running a factory L86 mani-TB purchased new) for what it?s worth. Had it before I added the cam trying various throttle areas 3690 / 4118.0 / 4703.9 nothing noticeable or issues closing/negative timing. After the cam with torque models changing it has become a relentless less PITA with negative timing. I?ll get my Vt lowered in idle range as my zero pedal/immediate/engine torque mirror then timing plateaus starting positive then as it idles down or is thrown into gear -15 the throttle closes/flutters. Abruptly stopping onset?s this and in SD idles negative from the jump. Done started over time and time again tuning idle/maf/timing/fuel. I make progress on a tune but as I slowly lower vt there?s always some caveat the idle chops only to flatten out In gear, the throttle closes on tip in, or just starts pulling timing after heavy load. Learned how delicate/sensitive these tbs are after Meticulously porting/polishing the first L86 unit only made the issue worse after over working areas to close to the blade bought a new one at the dealer. There?s definitely a point or threshold lowering vt compounds the issue. I?m ready to order a L83 tb for my Old manifold because the minimal gains on top of it possibly creating a tuning headache aren?t at all worth it. I can flip the L86 setup for gears out back a win win.
Last edited by A_Texas90; 08-01-2021 at 12:30 PM.
Wish my car was almost ready to roll so I could test this thing out. I know my katech 103 took alot of work on mine for some reason too.
Any particular places to focus? In your experience with the Katech.
I was going to start fresh on my VT tables not linking selections and really fine tune timing irritations in increments of 2 or 5 degrees. Logically while a general percentage torque needs to be reduced it still isn?t uniform across the board. It would be time consuming but, so is starting over making little to no progress.
Last edited by A_Texas90; 08-01-2021 at 04:14 PM.
I have been through many ported TBs and some just run negative timing upon install, even TB's from the same porting person/company.
Personally, I think there is some kind of firmware conflict/incompatibility depending on which core you get. I never got to the bottom of it, but I could return the ones that idled negative for a different one from the same person and the second or third one would be fine with no tune changes.
Food for thought anyways.
I did exactly as you implied. I wasn't actually having a timing issue with mine as much as it would just hang open more than necessary, but playing with VT eventually got it down.
Thanks for the feedback always much appreciated!
Right on! I spent a few hours tonight approaching my VT in the above mentioned method truck was idling halfway decent and ripping took 3rd gear all the way to 6k several times hitting engine torque numbers 390-398 best I?ve logged. Very minor throttle flutter or closing mainly if I throw and go immediately after start up. More power equates to fun and PROBLEMS. Blew out yoke output seal on my 6L80 was able to press it in enough to make it home going to get a new tailshaft housing(w/ the sleeve bushing&seal) the seal decided to blow out a month ago installed a new seal last time. Thinking the bushing is trashed due to the vibration pushing factory truck driveshaft like a dip shit and running a solid billet mount isn?t dampening anything either.
Last edited by A_Texas90; 08-02-2021 at 06:05 AM.
I just came here to post this exact thing.
From my findings with the Soler 107mm:
-I have 3 2018 ZL1's with identical mods except one car has more pulley than the other two. ZL1 - Alpha is pullied to 18-19PSI. ZL1 Beta and Charlie are pullied to 15-16PSI. They all have the max effort port, 2 inch headers no cats, Meth and full E85(pump E72-78), 5 inch intake and the rest of the supporting bolt ons which I don't need to name. The rare thing here is all three owners of these cars are at the same shop I tune for and are friends so sharing info and parts is easy.
-I had FOUR different 107mm Throttle Bodies with this group.
-ZL1 Alpha, first start up, negative 10 degrees of timing. I've made massive changes to get it to +5-7 degrees of timing. But now it randomly surges which I'm sure is due to the torque model.
-ZL1 Beta, first start up, negative 12 degrees of timing. Was making progress and got it to -5 degrees but then a bunch of throttle performance codes popped up. After troubleshooting we determined the blade was rubbing on the throttle bore in the 0-10% range. Soler replaced unit with another one. Started car up and it was at -15 degrees of timing. NO MATTER WHAT, I never got it better than -5 degrees. Owner and myself both said F it and were going to go with a Katech or NW 103 as the owner is tired of the headache.
ZL1 Charlie, Aside from having to drill out one of the 4 four bolt holes because of improper machining, first start up -5 degrees of timing! Wow this is a vast improvement over the last 3. ZL1 Charlie owner saw what ZL1 Beta went through and said F this I'm not dealing with the headache either and went to a Katech 103mm TB so we never attempted to tune with the 107. Car with the SAME tune idles at 15-20+ degrees on the Katech 103 but -5 on the Soler 107.
-Back to ZL1 Alpha. ZL1 Charlie owner gave his 107 to ZL1 Alpha since out of all four throttle bodies, the #4 unit started out with the most timing. ZL1 Alpha owner is hard core and has no issues working with me on multiple files. We are going to start retuning for the #4 TB. For the record, ZL1 Alpha's first 107mm TB I got idling at +5-7 degrees of timing. WITHOUT CHANGING THE TUNE, Zl1 Alpha owner bolted up the #4 TB from ZL1 Charlie and his car immediately started idling at 20-22 degrees of timing. This is actually too much IMO for this setup and I can undo some of the ridiculous changes and likely solve the random surge.
In summary, it seems 1 out of 4 of the 107mm Soler TB's has potential to be tuned properly. Still a VERY far cry from the advertisement over on Corvette Forums where the claims are these wont cause negative timing. I haven't decided if I should just let it go and let other have the same terrible experience with this part, or speak up for my fellow car people. Surely the second option would cause drama which I have no interest in doing. But I feel the Soler 107 is extremely inconsistent and should not have been advertised as a solution for a large throttle body without the side effect of negative idle timing without tuning. How can a 103mm Katech idle with 20 degrees of timing with NO changes for idle area, but the 4mm larger (effective) TB goes so far into the negative? The bore is still 103mm, the additional effective 4mm comes from cutting down the throttle blade bar. Weird way to advertise it since we measured exactly 103mm on the rear of the bore.
I told the shop I will not tune any more cars with the 107mm. Not worth my time and headache. These three cars took up 5x the time it normally takes to tune a car with these mods. And Draggy hasn't demonstrated any performance improvement over the other guys 103's.
Update:
We took #4 107mm TB and put it on ZL1 Alpha. With minor changes the car is idling in the positive. It still has random dips into the negative when slowing down to a stop but I think that is just a matter of smoothing Virtual Torque in that area. It's actually as Sevinn posted above, I think the throttle is hanging open a bit when slowing down and that causes it to go to an area of VT where it pulls timing. The car quickly settles down afterwards. The client really wants to keep the 107mm so I am trying my best to make this one work for him. I won't tune anymore of these things unless Soler can fix the issues of negative timing and inconsistency's between units.
Last edited by TriPinTaZ; 08-05-2021 at 06:24 AM.
This is great information. I just narrowly escaped a friend putting one of these on his ZL1, I steered him towards the Katech unit.
So after bolting this one one you just adjusted the VT tables in the idle region and it seems to be ok? No change in scalar?
Yup, no change in scalar (I already had it around 5100 prior)and only made a 10-20% blended reduction in Virtual Torque in the idle area and the car drives great. We haven't been able to replicate the dip in timing when coming to a stop so it may have just been the ECU settling down after the flash. But the owner is data logging the car over the next few days while he drives it to capture it if it happens again. I think I already know where the issue is but I don't want to make any changes until I see exactly where the cam, RPM, Airmass and MAP are when it happens. I think I need to blend the 1200-1800 RPM areas as the cam moves back to 0.
Update 10-01-2021, see Post #62. Do the on road idle learn procedure before tuning.
Hello, Tuners. Glad to see the conversation started.
Obviously, we want these to work for the customer but mostly for you, Tuners. You are the ones that have to deal with the headaches, and we want none of that.
We started these by testing in our company car a 2015 Stingray A8, on stock tune, we have tested a couple of dozens and we always see 10-20 positive spark. We also ran 5 test units, 3 C7 Z06's heavily modified, one ZL1, and one SS. Only one of the Z06's had the negative timing issue, sent a replacement and it was fine then.
We do believe that you can get negative timing at idle, but can't explain why we always get positive timing in our company car. In any case, seems like positive idle timing in the company car is not a good predictor of idle timing in another car.
Nevertheless, we have all the tools, the flexibility, and the capacity to make any changes you can think of on the spot. Ideas, feedback are welcome and needed. This design is pretty much alive until we figure this thing out. So far, we feel timing-wise we are on par with existing alternatives, for these idle timing issue is not new, nor endemic of our 103mm TB's, but we want to be better than that.
For the customers, they'll never be stuck with a TB that doesn't work, they'll get one that works or their money back.
For the tuners, don't sweat it trying to make it idle positive. If it doesn't idle positive, send it back and we'll send a replacement customized for that issue. Again, we have some ideas we need to try to tackle these, but we need cars showing the symptoms.
Hopefully, with your help, we can implement improvements and settle on a design that will idle positive for all cars and not just some.
Thanks,
Last edited by Mike@SolerEngr; 10-01-2021 at 10:06 AM.
Thanks for reaching out Mike, I haven't had to deal with this issue yet but from what Taz is saying, it sounds like a bear to deal with. Glad you are onboard with trying to make things work.
When you say send the throttle back to have it customized for a negative timing issue, what are you customizing? Are we modifying the electrical part of the throttle body? If this is a proprietary secret I understand but I am just trying to understand on your end of things how the throttle is being changed to help with the tuning issue other than port work.
Update 10-01-2021, see Post #62. Do the on road idle learn procedure before tuning.
A pleasure. It's been a mixed bag, most good, some idle negative and there's no pattern yet as to indicate why. Every single one of them idles positively in stock LT1 engine with stock tune. We think this is too much air when idling and we have several ways to restrict it mechanically, without resorting to change the throttle body intrinsic calibration (electrical part). So no secret, it is port work, changing airflow vs. TP% down in the idle region and find a curve that works for all cars or perhaps different configurations according to mods.
Thanks,
Last edited by Mike@SolerEngr; 10-01-2021 at 10:07 AM.
What a great way to run a business. Cheers to you for being on board!
Hi Mike
Good to see you jumped in this chat, feel free to continue speaking to me via our existing email thread or DM here or even in this thread.
I was actually just discussing with the shop guys in Texas if we should ask you about changing the gear by a tooth or two under the cover. The same tune has resulted different timing results with all 4 different throttle bodies so the issue isn't in the tuning. The one that I have running in the positive has a strange dip when coming to a stop that I am still working through to see if it is a TB thing or a Virtual Torque thing. The guys I work with are top notch mechanically and I can instruct them if there are any physical changes you want to make, or we can just send a unit back for replacement and see what it takes to get a positive idle without frankensteining the torque tables.
My one client really wants to keep the 107. Let me know what you can do to help us on this car. The #4 TB was the best one that would idle at -5 where the others would idle from -12 to -20 on the same tune. We are willing to keep working with you if you want to get involved. I was literally going to email you today about the next steps. Unfortunately, 2 of the 3 clients ran out of patience and do not want to continue. But I still have the one hardcore guy that is ready to make it work.
Thanks,
Jason
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