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Thread: Idle Issues with Modest Combo

  1. #1
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    Idle Issues with Modest Combo

    Okay. I've got a 2012 gt. The only motor mod is a "race" Airaid CAI. I don't have my tuning laptop with me, so the questions I'm about to ask will need to be answered with concepts/hypotheses until I can post my log and tune. But please respond barring these!

    The issues I've had with the car since I've had it is hunting idle. When I bought it, it had the CAI, but it had the sleeve still in place, so the tube ID was closer to stock. Then, I removed the sleeve, adjusted the MAF curve to account for the increased airflow, and I did some OP spark tuning. As you will see with the majority of my tune - most of the changes I made were to affect WOT behavior by reducing WOT pedal position, WOT VCT events, and increasing the WOT spark (OP borderline and MBT tables). I also have done a little bit of trans tuning (automatic car), but that's irrelevant to my issues.

    Back on track. When I cold start the car, it idles according to the setpoint and adders I've defined, initially (for maybe 10 seconds or so), then it starts to vary approximately 200-300 rpms at a slow rate (as opposed to a fast oscillation). Mind you, it will stay in idle feedback source (can't remember if this is an idle source or a torque source PID) the entire time this is happening, which seems weird to me. I would expect the source to jump around for something like this. Anyway, once it gets to operating temperature, the oscillation seems to go away.

    Another issue I am having is when I blip the throttle in park. After a "blip event", I'll call it, the torque source goes to target N, which seems normal as it is trying to achieve the commanded idle setpoint. But when it does this, it aggressive pulls the RPM to around 500 and hunts pretty badly and takes anywhere from 5-10 seconds to finally stabilize and get back into idle feedback mode/my desired idle speed. Does anyone know what causes this? Car doesn't have an aftermarket throttle body to my knowledge. The reason I say this is because the TB model values were all stock when I bought it. Granted, it has always hunted idle, like I mentioned. It just worsened after I removed the CAI sleeve. So maybe this is something I should check. I have a 99% feeling it is stock though, since the car runs great under all other conditions (cruise, partial throttle, WOT, etc.). I messed with the idle spark tables a few years ago (before the "race" CAI) and I didn't like the way it reacted, so I changed them all back to stock. I recently lowered the spark torque reduction strategy in an attempt to lessen how aggressively is pulls the engine speed down during target N. Doing so resulted in intermittent results where it will gradually pull the engine speed down if a lightly stab it and wont hunt so badly (yay!), but if I flog it and let off, it remains relatively unchanged (still aggressively pulls the engine speed down and hunts badly afterwards).

    A new problem that developed recently, and I have no idea why, is that my log is showing me that it is cutting the fuel injectors by going into fuel source "(OJ) fuel inj cut" when I'm in 1st gear and lugging it (<5% or so throttle). I've read in another few threads that this fuel source can happen if there is an issue with the ignition system, via bad plugs or coils. If I understand correctly, the ecu is smart enough to detect a misfire and then turn off injectors to prevent cylinder flooding. Pretty cool, except for when it's happening lol. I haven't received any misfire DTCs though, so I don't think it is this. Another thread mentioned that if one's MAF calibration is way off, then the car will go into OL. Is this true? Interestingly enough, when the car is doing the weird, aggressive idle hunting mentioned above, I see MAF periods in the 500ms or so and fueling correction (STFT) going to 20%. This has happened to me a few times. I keep adjust that point of the MAF curve by multiplying by half (I've done this two or three times already), and I keep seeing STFT go to 20% in that part of the curve, which is weird. But the STFTs during this mysterious injector cut are all within 3-5%, plus or minus.

    I also tried adjust the DD table at 12 pedal counts and 1150 RPM, but it didn't seem to do much. Granted, I barely changed to value from stock. Could this be my problem?

    When I get back home I will see if I do have an aftermarket TB, and I'll check my plugs. And as I mentioned, I will post my current tune and log so there is more to go on. But in the meantime, can anyone lend some credence to my thoughts and provide the "whys" for the issues I'm having.

    Please help! I'm desperate at this point!
    Last edited by White12GT; 07-25-2021 at 02:59 PM.

  2. #2
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    Log of only idle, log showing inj cut, and tune

    weird.hpl
    still inj cut.hpl
    back to stockish.hpt

  3. #3
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    Starting to think STFT are my problems. Can anyone verify that the MAF being off 20+% can lead to these issues?

  4. #4
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    when you install a bigger intake you need compensate through your MAF period

    say your stock intake diameter is 2.5" and you moved to 3" you will need to adjust for the new diameter

    you can multiply your table by 1.2 so you can lower your o2 correction which is what is causing your poor idle and drivability
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    Thanks for the reply!

    Would my STFT being out of whack cause the injector cut though? As mentioned, injector cut happens at a point in my maf where, at the moment in time it happens, my STFT goes to zero. Is this because the ecu finally got tired of correcting so it just cuts the injectors all together?

    I?m also seeing an idle speed source of ?GPAS Clip? in the inj cut log. Can you tell me what this means?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by White12GT View Post
    Would my STFT being out of whack cause the injector cut though? As mentioned, injector cut happens at a point in my maf where, at the moment in time it happens, my STFT goes to zero. Is this because the ecu finally got tired of correcting so it just cuts the injectors all together?

    I?m also seeing an idle speed source of ?GPAS Clip? in the inj cut log. Can you tell me what this means?
    A few things will need returned to stock and retuned. Your MAF Curve needs to be returned to stock, Sultan mentioned the best way to adjust for CAI. Find the difference between the stock MAF Housing and your aftermarket MAF Housing and increase the whole stock MAF curve by that difference..
    ddd-bad-maf-curve.PNG


    Idle Speed Source is telling you exactly where you need to look.. You increased both Idle RPM and cold start RPM adders. First gens idle good around 650 to 725. Higher RPM will need adjusting more tables or you'll chase your tail. I'd set P/N to 675 and Drive to 725. Return the cold start adders to stock and increase Max Idle Setpoint Drive to 1000. Table 44223.


    Driver demand, rescale the throttle axis using these values.
    15 40 66 92 130 172 241 312 406 542
    Then adjust the cells in Driver Demand. This table can change the feel of the car, worse or bad. Your table's values look real low.
    DD Example
    Attachment 112084
    an

    Idle > General > Min VSS. Below this vehicle speed the ECM will use adaptive methods to control the idle (closed loop idle). Above this speed the idle uses the dashpot feature. \ You have this value set to 1mph. Increase it a few MPH to so it will begin idle before you stop. Changing the idle speed adders will probably get rid of most of the idle and decel issues. The car will lean out fuel to control torque, but yours is having to completly cut injectors off.

    Another culprit. I noticed you rescaled MBT tables to have the same load axis as Borderline It would be nice if they were like this from factory. Rescaling the Load Axis on MBT spark requires you to change the values of the first 5 rows of cells. The spark timing for those cells were for that specific load. The load for MBT was .1, .2, .3, .4, .5 etc. Now its .1, .35, .4, .5 so timing is real advanced at low load. Your current .35 load has values for your old .2 load row. Current .4 load has spark values for your old old .3 load.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thatwhite5.0 View Post
    A few things will need returned to stock and retuned. Your MAF Curve needs to be returned to stock, Sultan mentioned the best way to adjust for CAI. Find the difference between the stock MAF Housing and your aftermarket MAF Housing and increase the whole stock MAF curve by that difference..
    ddd-bad-maf-curve.PNG


    Idle Speed Source is telling you exactly where you need to look.. You increased both Idle RPM and cold start RPM adders. First gens idle good around 650 to 725. Higher RPM will need adjusting more tables or you'll chase your tail. I'd set P/N to 675 and Drive to 725. Return the cold start adders to stock and increase Max Idle Setpoint Drive to 1000. Table 44223.


    Driver demand, rescale the throttle axis using these values.
    15 40 66 92 130 172 241 312 406 542
    Then adjust the cells in Driver Demand. This table can change the feel of the car, worse or bad. Your table's values look real low.
    DD Example
    Attachment 112084
    an

    Idle > General > Min VSS. Below this vehicle speed the ECM will use adaptive methods to control the idle (closed loop idle). Above this speed the idle uses the dashpot feature. \ You have this value set to 1mph. Increase it a few MPH to so it will begin idle before you stop. Changing the idle speed adders will probably get rid of most of the idle and decel issues. The car will lean out fuel to control torque, but yours is having to completly cut injectors off.

    Another culprit. I noticed you rescaled MBT tables to have the same load axis as Borderline It would be nice if they were like this from factory. Rescaling the Load Axis on MBT spark requires you to change the values of the first 5 rows of cells. The spark timing for those cells were for that specific load. The load for MBT was .1, .2, .3, .4, .5 etc. Now its .1, .35, .4, .5 so timing is real advanced at low load. Your current .35 load has values for your old .2 load row. Current .4 load has spark values for your old old .3 load.
    Thanks so much! I'll make these changes and report back. I found out the hard way that this car had a tune in it when I bought it. So I didn't really start with a good baseline. I did find the stock copperhead calibration though, so I will use that as a guide as well.

    Also, even though my MBT scales are off a bit, wouldn't idle spark take over when the car is idling? I need to look at that log again, but I thought the spark source was "idle". That being said, if/when the car does go in and out of idle rpm source, the transition would be somewhat abrupt, which might be causing my issue (what you are probably getting at...just me processing).
    Last edited by White12GT; 07-30-2021 at 06:13 PM.

  8. #8
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    Driver demand, rescale the throttle axis using these values.
    15 40 66 92 130 172 241 312 406 542
    Then adjust the cells in Driver Demand. This table can change the feel of the car, worse or bad. Your table's values look real low.
    DD Example
    Attachment 112084

    Can you repost this attachment. It wont let me open it for some reason.

    Interesting you say mine are low. To my knowledge, all my values are stock, save for the last two or three columns. Is there a systematic way to update the DD as mods are made? Am I correct that even something as minor as spark advance being increased will require DD to be higher, since you are making more torque?

    Also, when is it advisable to change the torque model tables on an NA car? I'm getting throttle angle errors and wasn't sure if this was because the torque model has now become insufficient, even with my entry-level combo. I've combed through this form looking for a clear answer on how to adjust DD with relation to the torque tables and I haven't really found one. I have seen murfie's Excel sheet that is pretty popular. But how does it relate/should it relate to the DD table?

    Thanks in advance!

  9. #9
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    Be extremely cautious when changing axis scaling as it could affect other things that you are unaware of. I even recommend to never change the throttle axis scaling function as its also used for the transmission and changing it without having access to all those other tables (as none of the commercial software Ive seen as of yet has available) can cause at best case extremely quick shifting like 6th at 5mph or in some cases serious transmission problems and engine damage, like downshifting to 1st over 100 mph. Just be warned.

    DD is for throttle feel and to some extent dashpot. It does not require adjustment.

    Torque and inverse tables do not require adjustment either unless the torque to airflow model has changed from either ported heads or a significant redesign of the engine. Boost doesnt even change the torque model it just runs off the table.

    If all you have is a CAI then put the stock tune in and multiply the maf by 1.32 to start and get it running like a stock car first before tinkering.

    If you have long tubes or a modified exhaust then your hego delay will need adjustment.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by White12GT View Post

    Interesting you say mine are low. To my knowledge, all my values are stock, save for the last two or three columns. Is there a systematic way to update the DD as mods are made? Am I correct that even something as minor as spark advance being increased will require DD to be higher, since you are making more torque?

    Also, when is it advisable to change the torque model tables on an NA car? I'm getting throttle angle errors and wasn't sure if this was because the torque model has now become insufficient, even with my entry-level combo. I've combed through this form looking for a clear answer on how to adjust DD with relation to the torque tables and I haven't really found one. I have seen murfie's Excel sheet that is pretty popular. But how does it relate/should it relate to the DD table?

    Also, even though my MBT scales are off a bit, wouldn't idle spark take over when the car is idling? I need to look at that log again, but I thought the spark source was "idle". That being said, if/when the car does go in and out of idle rpm source, the transition would be somewhat abrupt, which might be causing my issue (what you are probably getting at...just me processing).

    Thanks in advance!

    You're right! I did just now compare your DD with an auto file I've tuned, and yours is stock.. I use that scale on all first gen auto's DD. You can get good results with a good DD table.. It's actually the scale from a manual trans. I'll post an auto with that scale. used it on an auto a long time ago and use it on every auto since. You can keep it stock, but this is a table that I always change myself.
    I recommended rescaling for drivability and increasing the values so torque request is more than engine brake torque, especially at WOT. Driver Demand on a first gen is nothing like an s550. You can set driver demand as high as the parameter lets you when wot. Doing this is on an S550 can give you issues.

    dd-driverdemandauto.PNG


    Throttle Angle Errors are not a major issue to be worried about. You will never have 0 throttle angle error and it really has nothing to do with an actual angle but a "throttle angle" of torque request when the request is calculated into a throttle angle. IPC Wheel Torque Errors are the issue. You won't need to touch tq/inverse at all.

    The borderline and MBT tables have a relationship with each other that I like to keep. They don't need to be kept stock, but the way the two table collaborate to achieve spark advance should be kept. It could cause any one of your sources, injector cut, torque control, control n. The car could use MBT spark to decelerate. If torque can not be decreased by the correct amount, it could be cutting the injectors. When i looked at your log I noticed MBT looked changed but it was just the scaling which I'd change back or calculate the values

    I was pretty sure adjusting Idle RPM and the RPM Adders would have been the fix to your idle issue.