Pentastar tuning with Large injectors

[brr]

I was recommended by a reputable tuner to install 42lb/hr injectors as I was running lean at WOT on E85. I ended up installing 52lb/hr injectors and my A/F's were in the 10.5 A/F range on E85. I told the tuner that since I have more flexibility that I needed my tune adjusted. This so called reputable tuner states that he offers free updated tunes and I have not heard from him in months!
Since Chrysler products base there Alcohol tunes on equations and basically needs a clean non ethanol fuel to start on a base line, I've been doing that. Currently my alcohol content is less than 1% so I need to restart a base tune again using the 52lb/hr injectors. I contacted the tuner (who states lifetime adjustments) and I still get no response after months of contacting this tuner.
I'm currently running 90octane with no ethanol and my gauge reads 1% alcohol. My current tune is supposed to be setup for E85 or 93octane but as of recently I'm now throwing a code for a P0172 rich condition. I need to apparently reset the injpw X mass to get the injector data set properly but I can't find anyone to help.
Attached is my latest tune with "0" fuel enrichment and I still hit 0.60-0.65 on the Lambda scale......


Note: The injectors are Bosch EV14 0280158187 or GM part number 12598646

[HaasExp]

It would also help a lot if you supplied a corresponding datalog for that tune, including your WB data.

[brr]

My bad, here's a log from tonight


I just went for a long ride logging....
Before I started the log I used HPTuners to reset the alcohol composition and the adaptive's. I did city driving and highway with a few WOT blasts. The Innovative WB would read around 0.60-0.65 at WOT after 3200-3500RPM. I could take off at WOT and once it hits around 3200-3500rpm is when it goes completely rich!
The Inovative is also still registering 1.0-1.2% alcohol content in the fuel even though I've been using Non-Ethanol 90 octane the past couple weeks......
I'm thinking once I get the Low Ethanol content tune set properly, when I switch back to E85 the tune will be correct.....
Any help would be greatly appreciated as I know the Pentastar has potential and this so called tuner left me high and dry.........
Note:
MPVI 2.1 is for A/F ratio
MPVI 2 is for Alcohol
I also have my limiter to 7500rpm and I do normally manual shift between 7000-7500rpm hence why the cam profile is modified at higher rpm......
I want my WOT A/F's around 12.5-11.5 or (0.85-0.78lambda) My engine seems to like the 11.5 ratio at WOT as I do run it to 7500rpm.....

Another note:
VE% went crazy high when the A/F ratio got rich....does this mean there's more tuning available to make more HP as VE is a register on how efficient the engine is......????




Attachment 112237

[HaasExp]

So correct me if I'm wrong but this is a log on gasoline with the 52lb injectors on exactly the same tune that the 42's were on?
I suspect this is the case as your LTFT's+STFT's are trying to pull near 25-30% everywhere

[brr]

correct, I was told I needed larger injectors because I was leaning out over 6500rpm on E85, so I installed 42lb/hr injectors which come to find out they were not E85 compatible (sellers misadvertising) so I then went with 52lb/hr injectors thinking they could be tuned out to have more than enough fuel to cover Non-Ethanol and E85 since even with the 42lb/hr injectors I was still short on fuel at WOT. My car is a flex fuel vehicle, but it almost seems the tune has either been directed towards E85 or regular gas. Nothing in between since its a flex fuel vehicle. I modified the tune a little bit that was provided to me that was focused on E85 Vs regular fuel using the newer Pentastar tunes for the cam timing. But I didn't adjust ignition timing as I figured it would be tuned correctly.
I did notice that when I went from the tune I was running from the last tuner to this current tune, my ignition timing was backed off a lot. The ignition timing from my old tune Vs the new tune is totally different.....
Attached is the tune I was running before I found out about leaning out at WOT and since then I installed a wideband....

[HaasExp]

so I installed 42lb/hr injectors which come to find out they were not E85 compatible (sellers misadvertising) so I then went with 52lb/hr injectors

You need to set up the injector characteristics (flow rate etc) when you change injectors. The tune will be expecting 42lb/hr but instead you have 52lb/hr. This will be mostly why its currently pulling a heap of fuel in CL and running dog rich in OL/WOT

[brr]

I tried looking into setting up the injectors but I can't find the correct information on the injector specifics.
They are Bosch 0280158187 52lb/hr injectors that fit a Chevy LS7.
Thanks

[B00STJUNKY]

I tried looking into setting up the injectors but I can't find the correct information on the injector specifics.
They are Bosch 0280158187 52lb/hr injectors that fit a Chevy LS7.
Thanks

You're going to have to come up with the injector data yourself, or pay someone else to reverse-engineer the data to work for the Chrysler model. GM, Ford, and Chrysler all 3 use different data models to characterize injector flow, and they're not always easy to convert from one model to the next. Ford data seems a little more friendly than GM data for conversion to Chrysler, but even that requires a bit of work.

Assuming your previous injectors were yielding minor deviations in fuel trims at part throttle, you could reverse-engineer your injector data from fuel trims to some degree. But one piece of data for the new injectors that you should really try to find before attempting that would be your "Inj PW Offset" data. That's usually a fairly universal data model that will be detrimental to the process of reverse-engineering the Inj PW vs Fuel Mass data.

Starting the reverse-engineering process without at least having the Inj PW Offset data nailed down would be a pointless exercise.

[duster360]

I'm thinking once I get the Low Ethanol content tune set properly, when I switch back to E85 the tune will be correct.....
Any help would be greatly appreciated as I know the Pentastar has potential and this so called tuner left me high and dry.........

That's exactly what you should do. I always dial in unknown injectors on Pump Gas because the stoic is more predictable and stable........then switch to E85.

If Fuel Trims was pulling 25% or more during open loop, I'd give the All the injector mass flow cells under say, 3000us pulse width a good +15% Bump. That'll cure the Rich code for the most part

WOT pulse width range of PW may be more than 25% too rich if your "tuner" was using the VE to band aid the A/F for injectors that were too small and maxing out.

[brr]

Here is the only information I was given by the supplier of the injectors:


Hi Chris,

Bosch does not supply the data for HPTuners. I have included dead-times from some similar injectors--this information may be helpful to get your tuning started.

Dead Times
Volts 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
ms 3.4500 2.4500 1.9500 1.6500 1.4000 1.2000 1.0500 0.9000 0.8000 0.7500 0.6667 0.6000

I really appreciate any help with getting these tuned properly. If I need to pay someone, I'll do my best since the current tuner won't reply anymore after his so called claimed lifetime tuning after purchasing his tune.....

[veeefour]

Those are CTS injectors used in supercharged 6.2

[veeefour]

Tuned at least 10 turbo cars with those, had to develop the data myself so can't share it for free. PM should you want to deal...

[HaasExp]

The Bosch 0280158187 52lb/min injectors came with the 3.6 Pentastar Sprintex SPS kits. I've tuned a couple of them now and came up with this data in the end:
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...-Injector-Data
PM if you need any further help getting your tune on track mate.

[brr]

HaasExp,
Thanks for the information! Just your Inj Pulse width Vs Fuel mass alone is totally different than what's been set in my tune. Also the Injector Pulsewidth Offset is different from the supplier I got the injectors from and even your settings! I'll try your settings out Haas, in the meantime I have another tuner contacted to see what they recommend. Thanks to everyone who has helped!

[brr]

Here's a little thing that's so simple that I actually missed it also since I'm no expert.....
When inputting the information for the Injector Pulse Width vs Fuel Mass you also have to change the inverse settings (Fuel Mass vs Fuel Pulse Width) but there's one detail I missed when doing this. When you select the FM vs IPW screen, you need to change the settings from MS to G. (Milliseconds to Grams) Just a heads up for those learning


Attachment 112499Attachment 112500

[brr]

Thanks to "HaasExp" I managed to get the 52lb/hr injectors working like normal and my A/F's are almost perfect for Non-Ethanol fuel with massive 52lb/hr injectors on the Pentastar. Now that I have a functional base fuel tune, now it's time to start adjusting for my 7500rpm shift points and a flex fuel tune using my local E85 pump that has a tested E80 rating.
The only issue I'm having tonight is the pcm is registering 30% Ethanol when the fuel is tested only having 1%. Hopefully I can figure this out since the Composition reset in HPT does not apparently work properly in the 2013 pcm.....
Again, Another shout out to "HaasExp" for the help with getting the injectors tuned in enough to allow 52lb/hr injectors on Non-E85 to work properly and my fuel trims look GREAT!




Attachment 112503


Here's the quick log from tonight. I did an adaptive reset so the adaptive's still need to set but the WOT readings never got below 11.9ish on the A/F scale. I didn't hit my WOT runs at 7500rpm I just let the pedal do it's work. I Never hit the Lambda 0.65 (or 9.56A/F) on this injector adjustment that was done. I was hovering around 0.85 Lambda (12.5 A/F's) at the richest point I may have hit 0.81 Lambda(11.91A/F's).
So now I finally have a tune that supports the 52lb/hr injectors thanks to Haas. Now I got to figure out why the pcm thinks I'm running 30% alcohol even though I'm running 1%. Once I get that figured out, hopefully the PCM will automatically adjust since it's a flex fuel pcm.....

[HaasExp]

Glad it helped. Strange that your Ethanol % didnt reset when you reset the adaptives. It may require a few drive cycles to do so. Someone with more first hand knowledge of the "virtual alcohol sensor" would have to chime in here.
Given its registering 30% ethanol I suspect that the AFRs will tend to lean out once it goes back to 0% ethanol. Least you have a starting point anyway

[brr]

I tried software resets tonight for adaptive and using HPT's composition reset and it still held 31% alcohol content on the stock pcm reading even though the innovative motorsports gauge reads 0.8-1% alcohol on ethanol free 90 octane. I'm going to disconnect the battery to see if that changes anything....I'll post results tomorrow......

[Hemituna]

Ethanol content doesn't reset when you reset adaptives....It uses last learnt value until it triggers learn again.
It only learns E content when trims are outside the specified ranges or tank volume changes.
You need to log commanded FA and FA cyl average.
This will tell you the stoich value the PCM 'thinks' is in the tank.
It is reading 30% because your overall fuelling is a little lean so the trims 'add' fuel.
The PCM then thinks this means there is E content in the fuel and adjusts FA to suit.
You have to play more with the settings until the commanded and average FA readings on gas are .0688-.0722ish.
Then when you add E it will climb up to .1015 when you are at E85.

[brr]

Ethanol content doesn't reset when you reset adaptives....It uses last learnt value until it triggers learn again.
It only learns E content when trims are outside the specified ranges or tank volume changes.
You need to log commanded FA and FA cyl average.
This will tell you the stoich value the PCM 'thinks' is in the tank.
It is reading 30% because your overall fuelling is a little lean so the trims 'add' fuel.
The PCM then thinks this means there is E content in the fuel and adjusts FA to suit.
You have to play more with the settings until the commanded and average FA readings on gas are .0688-.0722ish.
Then when you add E it will climb up to .1015 when you are at E85.

Thanks HemiTuna....
This would explain how the Dodge pcm calculates ethanol content then. I did a battery reset overnight, when I ran the car today the Ethanol % started at 30 and actually dropped to 4.5% when driving. So I figured I would put half a tank of Non-Ethanol in and then the readings went up to 26% ethanol and stayed there. I'm going to change my logging to include the Commanded FA and the FA Cyl average as you recommended.