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Thread: LS3 N/A to Turbo conversion: Several Problems

  1. #1
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    LS3 N/A to Turbo conversion: Several Problems

    I have a 2015 Camaro SS with a large-ish cam. I paid for an initial remote tune, then I re-tuned it several times as I added more bolt-ons. It ran great, but I wanted more power and added small twin turbos, bigger injectors, ZL1 fuel pump, and swapped long tubes for shorty headers. I got the new injector data in without issue, and then took a long break because of work and life. I finally got it running and am starting to do the actual tune, but I have several odd issues. Since I am new to forced induction (and still consider myself a novice tuner), I am reaching out for help.

    So I did some preliminary MAF scaling sitting in the driveway, then I took it on the road to get some MAF O2 Error readings in the higher register, and just a short hit to make sure it was making boost if AFR seemed safe.

    As I turned out of the parking lot after turning on the scanner, I could feel a slight miss, which I think (if I'm reading this correctly), is because bank2 is running lean (around 1-2 seconds in). Quickly after both sides went lean because of MAF scaling, which I expected.

    As I started on the highway at about 7 seconds in, it actually began pulling timing, I'm guessing because bank2 was lean and it was knocking. It can pull up to 8 degrees at that point, but it only pulled 6.

    I just cruised down the highway and it seemed to continue a real slight miss, so I didn't bother trying to do a steady(ish) slow log in 4th.

    At about 5:22, I came to a place to turn around and the miss felt like it cleared up. I was not watching the laptop and driving so I couldn't see the readings, but the wideband looked safe enough.

    So I did a moderate pull in 2nd to see if it was building boost. I only planned to rev it to about 5,800, but right before I got there, it suddenly lost power for a fraction of a second. I could hear what I think was the BOV venting to atmosphere (at 5:35), then it resumed running as before.

    I cruised the rest of the way home and it seemed to run about the same as before the pull.

    When looking at the log, note that my WB is in the driver's side exhaust pipe, about 12" after the turbo outlet.

    So my first question is this: I don't notice the miss when it's cold. Has anyone had new injectors behave badly only when hot, or is it possible it's something else? I plan on pulling the plugs tomorrow to see if I can isolate the problem to a particular cylinder, then try swapping that injector with another cylinder. Again, it seems to run fine cold, so I'll also take a quick log from a cold start up and verify that.

    The next question: do you have any idea what happened when it got to about 5,500 to cause it to fall on it's face? There wasn't significant KR at that time (just about 1 degree even though it pulled 6 getting on the highway), so I really don't think that was too lean, but I can't think what else would cause that.

    The last question: once the miss is resolved, would you just continue with the MAF scaling and spark adjust and then move onto the VVE, or would you do anything different? I'm open to doing a SD only tune, but if I can use it the way GM intended, I prefer to.

    As a side note, and I believe this is unrelated, my Ambient Temp reading is way off; it was actually about 80F outside, but it showed between 30-36 when I was sitting in the driveway and only 32 during this log. I'm guessing something happened to it when I removed the front bumper. I understand it isn't used in any tune calculations, but it is odd and is returning values, so I wanted to mention it.

    Thanks in advance for reading this and looking at the files.
    2015CamaroSS_NewInjectors_NewMAP_CatsOff_InitialMAFScale.hpt

    2015CamaroSS_OperatingTemp_HighwayCruise.hpl

  2. #2
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    Well, the plugs don't tell me what I wanted to know, anyone see anything useful from them?
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    I'm going to swap all the injectors from the driver's side to the passenger side to see if the O2 errors go with the injectors.

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    Look at your misc cutoff wheel speed limit, ( FUEL>CUTOFF>RPM LIMITS>MISC CUTOFF) the limit is at 5500 RPM at anything over 14 mph. Stock value is usually at 7,000, you need to raise the Rpm limit. As far as knock you need to rescale your spark table and lower the timing in the higher airmasses, it has already learned the knock values and pulled timing. The MAF is fine, calibrate the MAF and VVE tables.
    2000 WS6 Trans Am LS3, Tick Performance Stage 2 cam, ARH 1 7/8" Headers, FLT Level 6 4L60e, Circle D 5c Launching on a 200K 10 Bolt

    2001 Camaro SS M6 Black on Black

  4. #4
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    What injectors are you running?
    2000 WS6 Trans Am LS3, Tick Performance Stage 2 cam, ARH 1 7/8" Headers, FLT Level 6 4L60e, Circle D 5c Launching on a 200K 10 Bolt

    2001 Camaro SS M6 Black on Black

  5. #5
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    Yep - I'm an idiot - that's totally my fault.

    Thanks so much for looking at the tune.

    The injectors are:
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/DWK-16U0000908

  6. #6
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    You are still running NA timing, I would re-consider that and change to something much lower to prevent possible engine damage under boost.
    2016 Silverado CCSB 5.3/6L80e, not as slow but still heavy.

    If you don't post your tune and logs when you have questions you aren't helping yourself.

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    Great call; I was just starting with scaling the MAF and then was going to tweak the timing, but I can see it's better to not wait.

    I'll make some 'initial' timing changes first to get it closer before fine tuning it; thanks so much to everyone so far; these forums are fantastic thanks to folks like you guys.

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    You're welcome. The injector data is not right, flow rate, short pulse limit and adder are a little different than what is in the data sheet. I changed the data for you. Make sure when you are done tuning that you put the stock values back in the injector tip temp offset. Still some other things that need to be changed.
    2000 WS6 Trans Am LS3, Tick Performance Stage 2 cam, ARH 1 7/8" Headers, FLT Level 6 4L60e, Circle D 5c Launching on a 200K 10 Bolt

    2001 Camaro SS M6 Black on Black

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01SLPSSM6 View Post
    You're welcome. The injector data is not right, flow rate, short pulse limit and adder are a little different than what is in the data sheet. I changed the data for you. Make sure when you are done tuning that you put the stock values back in the injector tip temp offset. Still some other things that need to be changed.
    Well that's interesting. When I went to download it when I originally bought them (March), the website link for the data was broken, so they emailed me an internal copy that has notes on it saying SPA was updated in 2014 based on in car testing. The values are absolutely different than what you have. I'll be very glad if this fixes it, but I'll also be a teeny-tiny bit stressed that they sent me the wrong file!

    Honestly, I'll just be glad it fixes it and no doubt - everyone has off days, so I won't be terribly upset :-)

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuneAFish View Post
    Well that's interesting. When I went to download it when I originally bought them (March), the website link for the data was broken, so they emailed me an internal copy that has notes on it saying SPA was updated in 2014 based on in car testing. The values are absolutely different than what you have. I'll be very glad if this fixes it, but I'll also be a teeny-tiny bit stressed that they sent me the wrong file!

    Honestly, I'll just be glad it fixes it and no doubt - everyone has off days, so I won't be terribly upset :-)
    Well you can double check with them on that, but that is what i found under LS3 90 LB/HR. As far the misfire issue, that cylinder 6 spark plug has a lot of black spots on it which is usually an indication of detonation, that would make sense since you were running N/A spark timing. Misfires will show up as a lean condition in your oxygen sensors/wideband readings. I would recommend a new set of spark plugs and check to make sure you don't have any burnt spark plug wires.
    2000 WS6 Trans Am LS3, Tick Performance Stage 2 cam, ARH 1 7/8" Headers, FLT Level 6 4L60e, Circle D 5c Launching on a 200K 10 Bolt

    2001 Camaro SS M6 Black on Black

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    That makes sense. I swapped the injectors from driver's side to passenger side and the lean condition still exists on the bank 2. I will replace the plugs tomorrow and see if that makes a difference. I'll also rescale the maf with the new injector data. I hope it's not the wires; I relocated the coils and built my own wires, and that was a PAIN IN THE ASS because I couldn't buy the big ends that goes in the coil packs, so I had to disassemble the original wires to use them.

    Signing off for tonight, thanks!

  12. #12
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    Don't forget to re-scale your timing table and lower your spark timing, copy high octane to the low octane table too. Your MAF should not be that far off, the changes were minor but definitely check it, it has some areas that need to be cleaned up. I know your pain! Cutting the tape off the harnesses, double checking wires and making it look nice without cutting it takes forever! For whatever reason you cant get connectors for the LS3 style coils. Double check and make sure you have the correct wires going to each cylinder that could explain whats going on with the car.
    2000 WS6 Trans Am LS3, Tick Performance Stage 2 cam, ARH 1 7/8" Headers, FLT Level 6 4L60e, Circle D 5c Launching on a 200K 10 Bolt

    2001 Camaro SS M6 Black on Black

  13. #13
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    Finally back with an update. It appears to me the miss was a bad spark plug even though they were basically brand new (NGK TR6). I replaced them and took the car on two separate drives, one over 40 miles each way, and it never missed. I think we got it solved and now I can get back to the actual tuning since it finally seems to be running consistent.

    I did a short log and a slight MAF rescale after swapping the plugs. I then took it on a steady highway cruise with a pull at the end. I still have to take care of the VVE and it looks like there is still some MAF cleanup (and spark), but it's getting closer; it smoked the tires (traction control off) at 55mph on the on-ramp and I had to get out of it for a second.

    One thing that makes me nervous is during the 4th gear portion of the pull at the end of this log, the fuel pressure drops down to 46 or so. Now, that's at a 10.46 AFR, which I know is too rich. I have a ZL1 pump in it, but I still have the stock SS FSCM settings. I bought the extra credit to edit my FSCM, I just have been nervous to touch anything in it unless I have to. I do have a boost a pump that I can install if I have to, but I'm trying to not add any more complexities than is required, so I'd like to try tweaking the FSCM to see if I can get it to hold 49 psi (I believe I read that was the preferred minimum for boosted applications).

    Anyway, here is the current tune/log if you would like to take a peek!
    2015Camaro_AfterMissFixed.hpt
    2015Camaro_Cam_TwinTurbo_ZL1Pump_Injectors_HighwayCruiseAndShortPull.hpl

    Thanks!
    Mike