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Thread: Has to be more than just throttle V to dictate PE

  1. #1
    Advanced Tuner coanan's Avatar
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    Has to be more than just throttle V to dictate PE

    I'm meeting voltage requirements. throttle 2.41v, (WOT set to 1.80v), TPS 41.6, 4300rpm 1.90 lbs boost 1st gear and I'm not in PE. 15.9 AFR.

    Don't remember this before I stroked engine with bigger cam.
    13 Chrysler 300S, 4XX stroker, cam motion 232/246 619/619 118 +4
    * (E-Force TVS2300, DW 65lb inj. 84 +4 TB) FORE dual return fuel system, AIT 18% OD pulley, 1 7/8 kooks w/hi-flow cats, 3" Magnaflow Cat-back, FTI 2800 stall, Getrag 3.73 Brembo upgrade. Stage one MOPAR springs, XIX X39 22x9 +15 - 22x10.5 +22 with NITTO NT420V 265/35R22 - 295/30R22
    *(replacing with)(Whipple Gen 5 3.0 (ordered 4/21/21) Arrived 30 Aug.))
    Meth injection, ID 1050X inj. MMX 95mm TB

  2. #2
    Whats the "Fuel System Status" parameter say in the scanner? Does it always stay at "CL-Normal"?

  3. #3
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    try to disable throttle adaption.

  4. #4
    Advanced Tuner coanan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaasExp View Post
    Whats the "Fuel System Status" parameter say in the scanner? Does it always stay at "CL-Normal"?
    Stays in CL.
    13 Chrysler 300S, 4XX stroker, cam motion 232/246 619/619 118 +4
    * (E-Force TVS2300, DW 65lb inj. 84 +4 TB) FORE dual return fuel system, AIT 18% OD pulley, 1 7/8 kooks w/hi-flow cats, 3" Magnaflow Cat-back, FTI 2800 stall, Getrag 3.73 Brembo upgrade. Stage one MOPAR springs, XIX X39 22x9 +15 - 22x10.5 +22 with NITTO NT420V 265/35R22 - 295/30R22
    *(replacing with)(Whipple Gen 5 3.0 (ordered 4/21/21) Arrived 30 Aug.))
    Meth injection, ID 1050X inj. MMX 95mm TB

  5. #5
    Advanced Tuner coanan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by f.creek-ranch View Post
    try to disable throttle adaption.
    I'll disable
    13 Chrysler 300S, 4XX stroker, cam motion 232/246 619/619 118 +4
    * (E-Force TVS2300, DW 65lb inj. 84 +4 TB) FORE dual return fuel system, AIT 18% OD pulley, 1 7/8 kooks w/hi-flow cats, 3" Magnaflow Cat-back, FTI 2800 stall, Getrag 3.73 Brembo upgrade. Stage one MOPAR springs, XIX X39 22x9 +15 - 22x10.5 +22 with NITTO NT420V 265/35R22 - 295/30R22
    *(replacing with)(Whipple Gen 5 3.0 (ordered 4/21/21) Arrived 30 Aug.))
    Meth injection, ID 1050X inj. MMX 95mm TB

  6. #6
    Advanced Tuner coanan's Avatar
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    I forgot about the other thing that changed since stroker install, NN is off now.
    13 Chrysler 300S, 4XX stroker, cam motion 232/246 619/619 118 +4
    * (E-Force TVS2300, DW 65lb inj. 84 +4 TB) FORE dual return fuel system, AIT 18% OD pulley, 1 7/8 kooks w/hi-flow cats, 3" Magnaflow Cat-back, FTI 2800 stall, Getrag 3.73 Brembo upgrade. Stage one MOPAR springs, XIX X39 22x9 +15 - 22x10.5 +22 with NITTO NT420V 265/35R22 - 295/30R22
    *(replacing with)(Whipple Gen 5 3.0 (ordered 4/21/21) Arrived 30 Aug.))
    Meth injection, ID 1050X inj. MMX 95mm TB

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by coanan View Post
    Stays in CL.
    Stays in CL but you are reading 15.9AFR?? That's very strange. What are the trims doing? Got a tune and a log file?

  8. #8
    Advanced Tuner coanan's Avatar
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    This log shows that it went into PE at one point, then it didn't right after.

    When I ease into boost or low boost it seems to stay in CL or I'm just reading it wrong.

    I never was good at reading logs for the most part and putting things together.

    I was putting off a pro tune, because the SC, TB, and inj. will be getting changed out when the Whipple arrives.

    It wouldn't load the one log I wanted to, maybe too large.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    13 Chrysler 300S, 4XX stroker, cam motion 232/246 619/619 118 +4
    * (E-Force TVS2300, DW 65lb inj. 84 +4 TB) FORE dual return fuel system, AIT 18% OD pulley, 1 7/8 kooks w/hi-flow cats, 3" Magnaflow Cat-back, FTI 2800 stall, Getrag 3.73 Brembo upgrade. Stage one MOPAR springs, XIX X39 22x9 +15 - 22x10.5 +22 with NITTO NT420V 265/35R22 - 295/30R22
    *(replacing with)(Whipple Gen 5 3.0 (ordered 4/21/21) Arrived 30 Aug.))
    Meth injection, ID 1050X inj. MMX 95mm TB

  9. #9
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    Change table 44448 to 127.5 and 44450 to 0.

    See if that helps.
    If in doubt, multiply everything by 1.1.

  10. #10
    Advanced Tuner coanan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spoolboy View Post
    Change table 44448 to 127.5 and 44450 to 0.

    See if that helps.
    Changed table 44448 to 127.5 and it keeps reverting to 110.794


    was showing in Kilometers. fixed
    13 Chrysler 300S, 4XX stroker, cam motion 232/246 619/619 118 +4
    * (E-Force TVS2300, DW 65lb inj. 84 +4 TB) FORE dual return fuel system, AIT 18% OD pulley, 1 7/8 kooks w/hi-flow cats, 3" Magnaflow Cat-back, FTI 2800 stall, Getrag 3.73 Brembo upgrade. Stage one MOPAR springs, XIX X39 22x9 +15 - 22x10.5 +22 with NITTO NT420V 265/35R22 - 295/30R22
    *(replacing with)(Whipple Gen 5 3.0 (ordered 4/21/21) Arrived 30 Aug.))
    Meth injection, ID 1050X inj. MMX 95mm TB

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by coanan View Post
    Changed table 44448 to 127.5 and it keeps reverting to 110.794


    was showing in Kilometers. fixed
    Fixed, as in changing this value resolved your issues with entering PE?

  12. #12
    Advanced Tuner coanan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B00STJUNKY View Post
    Fixed, as in changing this value resolved your issues with entering PE?
    Sorry. the value issue. Just got notification that My Gen 5 3.0 Whipple is shipping tomorrow. Working with sales now to see which pulley is going to give me 16 to 18 lbs boost. Have a 18% lower now.

    Whipple's telling me that 3.25 is the smallest pulley for Gen5 right now, not gonna get 18psi with that.

    Hope the aftermarket steps up quick.

    My E-Force will be for sale if anyone in the S. Florida area is interested and wants to see it running.
    Last edited by coanan; 09-22-2021 at 04:52 PM.
    13 Chrysler 300S, 4XX stroker, cam motion 232/246 619/619 118 +4
    * (E-Force TVS2300, DW 65lb inj. 84 +4 TB) FORE dual return fuel system, AIT 18% OD pulley, 1 7/8 kooks w/hi-flow cats, 3" Magnaflow Cat-back, FTI 2800 stall, Getrag 3.73 Brembo upgrade. Stage one MOPAR springs, XIX X39 22x9 +15 - 22x10.5 +22 with NITTO NT420V 265/35R22 - 295/30R22
    *(replacing with)(Whipple Gen 5 3.0 (ordered 4/21/21) Arrived 30 Aug.))
    Meth injection, ID 1050X inj. MMX 95mm TB

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by coanan View Post
    Sorry. the value issue. Just got notification that My Gen 5 3.0 Whipple is shipping tomorrow. Working with sales now to see which pulley is going to give me 16 to 18 lbs boost. Have a 18% lower now.

    Whipple's telling me that 3.25 is the smallest pulley for Gen5 right now, not gonna get 18psi with that.

    Hope the aftermarket steps up quick.

    My E-Force will be for sale if anyone in the S. Florida area is interested and wants to see it running.
    Coanan, just want to relate one experience I had while a 2008 300C. I was trying to avoid high speeds on the street while logging/tuning, so I was loading the car down with the brakes while simultaneously accelerating to simulate a higher gear. I noticed in doing so that the car would NOT enter PE. As you can imagine, I was quite confused at first trying to figure out why the car wasn't going into PE when it had been going into PE without fail prior to loading it with the brakes. So I tested that theory a few times that day on that car, and each time I tried to load it down with the brakes, it would fail to enter PE.

    Might want to double check that you're not inadvertently getting a brake signal broadcast somehow (faulty brake, perhaps?).

  14. #14
    Senior Tuner Mep_q8's Avatar
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    Try this out.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by coanan View Post
    This log shows that it went into PE at one point, then it didn't right after.
    Firstly, you need to log the accelerator pedal voltage as that is the actual trigger for OL conditions in the tune (1.7451V in the tune you uploaded). You have only logged accelerator % and that seems to be logged at a very low rate. You can back calculate it but that's just a pain so just log the voltage directly.
    Secondly, the log you supplied does not include the fuel system status. However you can determine when it does into OL but looking at the commanded EQ, followed by the WB readings.
    To me it looked like it triggered just fine in one instance of the log. This coincidences with the highest accel ped % in the entire log. You can see that the EQ commanded (in blue) drops sharply when the accel ped > 33.2%. This is then followed by the AFRs dropping on your wideband. But your datalogging rate is soo course for the accel pedal % and Eq commanded that it makes it very hard to determine the exact instant OL is triggered. From the log OL was activated somewhere between ~27-51% pedal.
    OLActive.JPG
    To make the logs more useful, you need to log these parameters at the fastest rate (10ms) and log the accelerator pedal voltage parameter at this rate too.
    The correct accel voltage parameter will be the one that goes from 0 to 3.84V ish max. You can test this by logging with the KOEO and pressing down the pedal fully.
    Last edited by HaasExp; 4 Weeks Ago at 12:22 AM.

  16. #16
    Advanced Tuner coanan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B00STJUNKY View Post
    Coanan, just want to relate one experience I had while a 2008 300C. I was trying to avoid high speeds on the street while logging/tuning, so I was loading the car down with the brakes while simultaneously accelerating to simulate a higher gear. I noticed in doing so that the car would NOT enter PE. As you can imagine, I was quite confused at first trying to figure out why the car wasn't going into PE when it had been going into PE without fail prior to loading it with the brakes. So I tested that theory a few times that day on that car, and each time I tried to load it down with the brakes, it would fail to enter PE.

    Might want to double check that you're not inadvertently getting a brake signal broadcast somehow (faulty brake, perhaps?).
    I'll look into it. Thank you
    13 Chrysler 300S, 4XX stroker, cam motion 232/246 619/619 118 +4
    * (E-Force TVS2300, DW 65lb inj. 84 +4 TB) FORE dual return fuel system, AIT 18% OD pulley, 1 7/8 kooks w/hi-flow cats, 3" Magnaflow Cat-back, FTI 2800 stall, Getrag 3.73 Brembo upgrade. Stage one MOPAR springs, XIX X39 22x9 +15 - 22x10.5 +22 with NITTO NT420V 265/35R22 - 295/30R22
    *(replacing with)(Whipple Gen 5 3.0 (ordered 4/21/21) Arrived 30 Aug.))
    Meth injection, ID 1050X inj. MMX 95mm TB

  17. #17
    Advanced Tuner coanan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mep_q8 View Post
    Try this out.
    Will do. Thank you
    13 Chrysler 300S, 4XX stroker, cam motion 232/246 619/619 118 +4
    * (E-Force TVS2300, DW 65lb inj. 84 +4 TB) FORE dual return fuel system, AIT 18% OD pulley, 1 7/8 kooks w/hi-flow cats, 3" Magnaflow Cat-back, FTI 2800 stall, Getrag 3.73 Brembo upgrade. Stage one MOPAR springs, XIX X39 22x9 +15 - 22x10.5 +22 with NITTO NT420V 265/35R22 - 295/30R22
    *(replacing with)(Whipple Gen 5 3.0 (ordered 4/21/21) Arrived 30 Aug.))
    Meth injection, ID 1050X inj. MMX 95mm TB

  18. #18
    Advanced Tuner coanan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaasExp View Post
    Firstly, you need to log the accelerator pedal voltage as that is the actual trigger for OL conditions in the tune (1.7451V in the tune you uploaded). You have only logged accelerator % and that seems to be logged at a very low rate. You can back calculate it but that's just a pain so just log the voltage directly.
    Secondly, the log you supplied does not include the fuel system status. However you can determine when it does into OL but looking at the commanded EQ, followed by the WB readings.
    To me it looked like it triggered just fine in one instance of the log. This coincidences with the highest accel ped % in the entire log. You can see that the EQ commanded (in blue) drops sharply when the accel ped > 33.2%. This is then followed by the AFRs dropping on your wideband. But your datalogging rate is soo course for the accel pedal % and Eq commanded that it makes it very hard to determine the exact instant OL is triggered. From the log OL was activated somewhere between ~27-51% pedal.
    OLActive.JPG
    To make the logs more useful, you need to log these parameters at the fastest rate (10ms) and log the accelerator pedal voltage parameter at this rate too.
    The correct accel voltage parameter will be the one that goes from 0 to 3.84V ish max. You can test this by logging with the KOEO and pressing down the pedal fully.
    For some reason these logs posted never look the same as when viewing on my laptop. The ones I post, channels, graphs, and charts look completely different than my laptop, like that stuff doesn't transfer with.

    I'm logging TP%, TP voltage, and commanded TP%. What others should I add?
    13 Chrysler 300S, 4XX stroker, cam motion 232/246 619/619 118 +4
    * (E-Force TVS2300, DW 65lb inj. 84 +4 TB) FORE dual return fuel system, AIT 18% OD pulley, 1 7/8 kooks w/hi-flow cats, 3" Magnaflow Cat-back, FTI 2800 stall, Getrag 3.73 Brembo upgrade. Stage one MOPAR springs, XIX X39 22x9 +15 - 22x10.5 +22 with NITTO NT420V 265/35R22 - 295/30R22
    *(replacing with)(Whipple Gen 5 3.0 (ordered 4/21/21) Arrived 30 Aug.))
    Meth injection, ID 1050X inj. MMX 95mm TB

  19. #19
    Advanced Tuner coanan's Avatar
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    My Whipple should be here end of month. They did get in smaller pulleys, he's sending a 2.5.

    When this is all installed, with Meth, ID1050 inj, and 95mm TB I'll be looking for a pro to tune this Email if I have to for drivability, but in person on a dyno.

    Thank you all for the input.
    13 Chrysler 300S, 4XX stroker, cam motion 232/246 619/619 118 +4
    * (E-Force TVS2300, DW 65lb inj. 84 +4 TB) FORE dual return fuel system, AIT 18% OD pulley, 1 7/8 kooks w/hi-flow cats, 3" Magnaflow Cat-back, FTI 2800 stall, Getrag 3.73 Brembo upgrade. Stage one MOPAR springs, XIX X39 22x9 +15 - 22x10.5 +22 with NITTO NT420V 265/35R22 - 295/30R22
    *(replacing with)(Whipple Gen 5 3.0 (ordered 4/21/21) Arrived 30 Aug.))
    Meth injection, ID 1050X inj. MMX 95mm TB

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by coanan View Post
    For some reason these logs posted never look the same as when viewing on my laptop. The ones I post, channels, graphs, and charts look completely different than my laptop, like that stuff doesn't transfer with.

    I'm logging TP%, TP voltage, and commanded TP%. What others should I add?
    Just add all the channels that are related to the accelerator pedal, particularly the accelerator pedal voltage. There will be a few of them. You are logging the throttle position (%), throttle position sensor (V) and commanded throttle actuator (%). These are not to be confused with the parameter regarding the accelerator pedal.
    In the log you supplied I can only see the "Accelerator Position D (SAE)" (%) channel.
    Also make sure you increase the logging rate to 10ms of these channels before you start logging otherwise the data rate becomes to slow and nothing lines up nicely.

    From the data in the supplied log, it seems that OL is triggering correctly and the mixture is richening up as per your wideband data.