How to dial in a 274 cam without using VE tables or NN?

[Ryan wittekind]

I recently installed a MDS delete and cam kit from MMX and am having trouble dialing it in. The car is a 2009 Charger Pursuit 5.7 Eagle. The cam is a Comp 274. Other than the MDS delete and the rest of the cam swap package (lifters, pushrods, phaser limiter, etc) the car is stock. Oh, shorty headers also. I am slowly learning how to tune on this vehicle, which is fine (I am not in a rush, I have another car to drive), but the other day I was told by Byron at MMX that the 2009-2010 models with the Eagle motors do not have functioning VE tables, nor do they utilize Neural Network. Correct me if Im wrong, but is that not the two methods of tuning these Hemis? Seems like everything Ive read uses either VE tables or NN methods to tune.

My questions now are:
1. Is it true that the 2009-2010 Hemis dont use VE tables or NN? And if they dont, should something be disabled or zeroed out in the tune file to reflect as such?
2. If not tuning by reworking the VE tables or using the NN method, then where do I start?

Thanks in advance for any info on this.

[f.creek-ranch]

If they dont have the VVT feature, they use VE.
It s always the same procedure.
First dial in your injectors or change the tuner…..��

[spoolboy]

I believe to get the VE tables active you must disable the exhaust cam phaser. Choosing disable for the NN doesn't do it on those.

NN is active. The original way to tune NN was via the injector flow tables, but that's kinda hacky.

[Ryan wittekind]

Spoolboy, just to clarify, you're saying make NN active then dial in my injector flow tables? Or vice versa?

[spoolboy]

One or the other. Choose to disable NN by disabling the cam phaser and then tune VE - OR - leave NN and phaser enabled and tune via the injector tables. There are threads on how to do it both ways in this forum.

You will have a problem with overly advanced cam timing if you disable the phaser though.

[outlaw_50]

Disable NN and tune it via VE

[Ryan wittekind]

This is the email from MMX that has got me so confused. If anyone can clarify what he means I would really appreciate it. Screenshot_20211021-173748_Gmail.jpgScreenshot_20211021-173748_Gmail.jpg

[SultanHassanMasTuning]

post your file

[Ryan wittekind]

the car: 2009 Charger Pursuit 5.7
274 comp cam
BBK shortys
hollow cats with non foulers doubled up
other than that it is stock

the tune:RW_MMX_02.hpt

[spoolboy]

This is the email from MMX that has got me so confused. If anyone can clarify what he means I would really appreciate it. Screenshot_20211021-173748_Gmail.jpgScreenshot_20211021-173748_Gmail.jpg

Well, you gotta pick who you believe.
Maybe ask him how the airflow model works if there is neither VE or NN active....

Was your cam installed with a limiter or lock? And what was the installed centerline?

[SultanHassanMasTuning]

your tune setup is not correct

[Ryan wittekind]

That I do not doubt. Could you please elaborate? I would like to avoid going back to the same tuner if possible. I would like to try to make adjustments myself. Would you reccomend making adjustments to this tune, or to start over from stock?

[SultanHassanMasTuning]

fueling and ve will get you 90% there

[Party340]

I have an 2009 and yes if you want to swing the cam with VVT you have to log injector pulse width and tweak the tables. It's not pretty but it works. AFR on my engine is 11.8 at the bottom of the rev range at WOT and 13.2 at the top. I have a 426 stroker with comp 270 so I want to swing the cam. In your case with the bigger 274 cam on a 5.7 L I would turn VVT off and tune it like a 6.1 via VE. Also NN does not work with VVT on. I've attached a screen shot of what my injector data look like. Fuel Injector Data.PNG

[Ryan wittekind]

I am completely new to tuning and its becoming apparent to me that choosing to put a 274 in a 5.7 might have been a bad choice for a first time tuner. I'm just trying to get my car running good enough to be my daily driver, without totally f***ing up my motor while playing with the tune. Thanks to all here for the help.

[Party340]

I don't think that you will mess your motor up. Disable VVT and start logging. You will need a wideband o2 sensor. Knock is number one. Use the VE tables to make adjustments. If you are rich then lower the VE at that part of the table. If you are lean than the motor is using more air than you think and add more fuel. VE is a measure of how much air a motor sucks in at a certain rpm. The air that is there needs to be complimented with the correct amount of gasoline. When you put your foot on the floor it needs to be around 12.5 parts oxygen and one part gasoline. That's where the wide band comes in. However due to intake runner/ port size/ cam timing/ and various other factors when a piston draws down it most probably will not suck in the most amount of air because the process happens so fast. Because of this you might not fill the cylinder volume completely with air. For example a motor the is a 5.7 L engine would have 100 % VE when the cylinders have 5.7 L of air in them via math equations. If you only get 3.7 L of air than you need to cut back on the fuel. Oversimplified but it's the correct concept. A good 5.7 L engine via good heads and headers might actually pull in 5.8 litters of air because of the suction effect that the exhaust gasses leaving at high speeds / momentum can have on pulling through the intake if both valves are open at the same time / overlap.

[Ryan wittekind]

That is the best explanation of VE that I have read. That really helps me understand the physics of it so much more clearly. Thank you. Now I just need to get a wideband. Reccomendations?

[Party340]

I use a FAST wide band but it's expensive. I like it because you can record. I'm sure that there are others that work just as well for cheaper. You need a way to look at RPM and the AFR at the same time. HP tuners pro can allow you to do this or you can set up a camera to look at the wide band readings and tack at the same time. As for VE your motors highest VE value will be at peak torque and will taper down from there. On an engine like yours with that cam it will be around 5000 RPM's