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Thread: 10r80 Torque Modulation Tables

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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by veeefour View Post
    Do you have max character set to 2?

    image.png
    Yes. Yesterday I ran the car again with the Dyno plug connected and car used alt 2 like it should've. Hopefully going to the track this weekend and will update then and probably have more questions. Thanks for all the help guys.

  3. #43
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    Ok guys, took the car to the track last night and have new questions lol. The first thing is why does the timing seem to hit a limiter while stalling the car on the torque converter and shortly after the car goes WOT? Is it something to do with the "launch" logic, is it just borderline timing tables? Secondly, the car isn't pulling a lot of timing for shift torque but every once in a while and for a very short time (typically, in one log it's very noticeable) I get timing pulled while spark source is still borderline but torque source says "Tq+ from trans" and Desired Airmass Arbitration Source is set to Disabled/FMEM is the log. What is this and how can I fix it. The car ran the fastest it ever has at a 7.52 on 93 and was pretty consistent throughout the night but the 1.85 60' is killing me.

    Tune attached is the last tune flashed to the car and correlates to Pass 4 log. I can attach the other tunes if y'all would like. Attaching all logged passes.
    Write 2, launch dd table changes, spark retarded a bit, maf adj.hpt Pass 1 7.52.hpl Pass 2, 7.53.hpl Pass 3, 7.56.hpl Pass 4, 7.566.hpl

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by zkonmando View Post
    Ok guys, took the car to the track last night and have new questions lol. The first thing is why does the timing seem to hit a limiter while stalling the car on the torque converter and shortly after the car goes WOT? Is it something to do with the "launch" logic, is it just borderline timing tables? Secondly, the car isn't pulling a lot of timing for shift torque but every once in a while and for a very short time (typically, in one log it's very noticeable) I get timing pulled while spark source is still borderline but torque source says "Tq+ from trans" and Desired Airmass Arbitration Source is set to Disabled/FMEM is the log. What is this and how can I fix it. The car ran the fastest it ever has at a 7.52 on 93 and was pretty consistent throughout the night but the 1.85 60' is killing me.

    Tune attached is the last tune flashed to the car and correlates to Pass 4 log. I can attach the other tunes if y'all would like. Attaching all logged passes.
    Write 2, launch dd table changes, spark retarded a bit, maf adj.hpt Pass 1 7.52.hpl Pass 2, 7.53.hpl Pass 3, 7.56.hpl Pass 4, 7.566.hpl
    In addition to this, why do I have Spark source: Torque control until almost 5 mph on launch? I think that may be affecting the 60' as well. If this is getting to far away for the original title I can make a new post under a new title if needed.

  5. #45
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    The low speed stuff could be anti-jerk.

    As for the torque+, I’ve seen that on mine as well. It seems to use one or the other or both on wot upshifts. It’s definitely a different source from shift modulation. It sounds like it’s one of the rare cases where torque management can add torque. Intuitively it sounds like when it’s rev-matching for downshifts, but that doesn’t make sense on upshifts. I’ve seen little to no discussion on that in the forum here.

  6. #46
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    Antijerk stuff is off in Engine, torque management tab. If the trans is adding torque why would it be subtracting timing? Look at the 1-2 shift on Pass 1. Its odd man. These cars are very complex.

  7. #47
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    I tried to remove tq+ from trans but it seems there's still something missing we are not aware of.

    You can flip the switch but this seems to have no effect:
    image.png
    You car try to alter tq arbitration tables but tq+ from trans will still be there:
    image.png
    Setting this to off in spark table wont switch it off either:
    image.png

    One thing I was able to determine is when you set it to use ETC or cut fuel on shifts, instead of having SPARK to do the job, it will very rarely use tq+ from trans.
    I would really like to know what tq+ from trans does and how we can really disable this logic - this is definitely not helping on boosted applications.
    Last edited by veeefour; 11-21-2021 at 04:50 AM.

  8. #48
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    I wonder if torque+ is the rev-match logic (I call it rev match but I’m talking about the auto trans downshift throttle blips) and vcm jas the torque source in error. Maybe the code is mixed up with torque-. It wouldn’t be the first time they mixed up source codes. Mine sometimes switches to “traction control” at the oddest time with perfect traction and tc/at off.

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    All this stuff is very weird, sadly I won't be able to run the car on the track this next week as they are closed for Thanksgiving. Hopefully, the week after I can get back out and test some stuff and I will update here again. If there's anything else you guys suggest trying I am all for trying it. Crazy that these have been around for a few years now and there is still a lot of unknowns when it comes to getting them working well. Even with the car still having a mind of its own on some things I am still counting this as a win compared to the last time I took it to the track where I had huge timing dips everywhere from torque control. I finally feel as if I am making headway. Thanks for the help this far on the trans side and hopefully we can eventually figure out the Tq+ logic.

  10. #50
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by engineermike View Post
    I wonder if torque+ is the rev-match logic (I call it rev match but I’m talking about the auto trans downshift throttle blips) and vcm jas the torque source in error. Maybe the code is mixed up with torque-. It wouldn’t be the first time they mixed up source codes. Mine sometimes switches to “traction control” at the oddest time with perfect traction and tc/at off.
    Don't think so, it looks like a second shift modulation, it slows down the entire up-shift. Rev match is only for down shift.

    If you torque source shows TC your trans is slipping.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by veeefour View Post
    Don't think so, it looks like a second shift modulation, it slows down the entire up-shift. Rev match is only for down shift..
    I don’t think you understood my post.

    What torque source does it show for rev matching/rpm increase during transmission downshifting?

  12. #52
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    I follow perfectly...you tune MT very differently has nothing in common.

    But to answer your question: mostly Tq base deccel and target N

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    No, that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about momentary throttle blips when the 10r80 downshifts to reduce inertial effects of the engine when the lower gear engages. That’s not target-n or torque based decel. Never mind I’ll log it myself.

  14. #54
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    ok, you mean rev matching auto trans on down shift...it's 100% shift modulation. Tq+ comes only on up-shift.

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    It crossed my mind that Hptuners might have the torque source definitions mixed up between the two in vcmscanner. It wouldn’t be the first time.

  16. #56
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    Tq+ from trans, comes on decel as well. Engine braking. It's torque the computer can't control directly. TCC, gear changes, or going into neutral. It's torque on the engine from the trans.

  17. #57
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    Tq+ from trans, comes on decel as well. Engine braking. It's torque the computer can't control directly. TCC, gear changes, or going into neutral. It's torque on the engine from the trans.
    You might be right but never seen it directly on down-shifts.

    Any idea how to not have tq+ on upshifts?

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by veeefour View Post
    You might be right but never seen it directly on down-shifts.

    Any idea how to not have tq+ on upshifts?
    I think you figured that out already, give it as much authority over engine torque as you can with out it causing issues. Drag mode does the opposite, so it goes to tq+ from trans easier.

  19. #59
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    The problem is tq+ is still there...but it's there only once in a while...which is not making any sense or rhyme.
    This is more complex than it looks - definitely some more options for hpt engineering to discover.

  20. #60
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    Let me offer an alternate explanation: "Torque+ from trans" is engine torque increase commanded by transmission logic.

    I've seen it on all of my higher rpm downshifts, where the throttle is blipped open to match the revs for the next lower gear. See attached screenshot, where pedal position was zero. All of my downshifts show the same.

    TQ plus.JPG

    On upshifts, this would happen when the torque modulation value is higher than the turbine torque, such as the case in drag mode when the modulation value is 738 ftlb and the turbine torque is under 500. Nothing happens as a result of this torque source, because it's already making maximum torque. This could be addressed by copying the row axis values into the rest of the table the same, but I really don't think it would change anything.
    Last edited by engineermike; 11-23-2021 at 12:21 PM.