Originally Posted by blindsquirrel
I dont care how big the injectors are, there is NO reason to stress the fuel system and kill the fuel pump life by running high pressure all the time.
Doesn't make any sense bro sorry
I dont care how big the injectors are, there is NO reason to stress the fuel system and kill the fuel pump life by running high pressure all the time.
Doesn't make any sense bro sorry
Assuming a worst-case of 43.5psi fuel pressure (gotta keep pressures low to make them parts go 100k miles like OEM, right?) and a non-referenced regulator, those 1500cc injectors are good for 1000 (ONE THOUSAND) crank HP with a pressure differential of only 15psi.
I guess the millions of vehicles on the road right now with fixed non-referenced 58psi systems are going to all drop dead any second now, right?
You do this same thing with every single issue. Every time. I for one am just sick of it.
Y?all went back and forth on my last thread 😂
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...069#post649069
I am an efficiency expert. I setup and tuned hundreds of cars over 20 years, and with so much experience I Learned how to and always set them up for longevity and simplicity. If you go to doctor and say "my blood pressure is 125/75 doctor, should I exercise?" And he says "Nah, dont exercise you are within the average range, its fine" that is basically what you are saying when you leave the pressure alone at 58psi, not exercising, not getting every last drop of efficiency and life. Leaving free health on the table.
If you come to me and say your blood pressure is 125/75 I would say "its a good start but you can do better, try getting it down to 110/55 by performing cardio exercise, lift some weights, let me show you how". There is nothing wrong with extracting an extra 10% of life from your body's organ systems, heart and blood organs (blood is an organ). The same can be said for fuel systems, by connecting a simple vacuum line you can extend pump life by 10 or 20%, and take stress off of every single component down stream. It doesn't make any sense NOT to when the extra life is free.
not to mention, on a completely different note within the same topic, it will be MUCH easier to fine tune idle with 35psi of fuel pressure using 1500cc injectors than it will be at 60psi lmao. There are MULTIPLE benefits besides extra longer life to fuel system parts with being able to reduce running pressure.
free life is free life
5.3/4l80e/turbo playthrough
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ge-budget.html
cancer research
https://www.mdpi.com/2306-5354/10/1/96
Hey man I just read about this fantastic new kind of superconducting wire, it completely eliminates all voltage drop! So I'm replacing every wire in my car with the new stuff. This will allow me to not only reduce the wire size for everything and still maintain efficiency, but I can also swap out the big 145A alternator for a much lighter 60A unit. Of course, the superconducting alloy wiring requires me to drag a 12,000lb chiller unit behind the race car, but hey, I figure any little gains should be worth it!
A referenced regulator is not synonymous with a 12,000lbs chiller unit lol
I'm not sure what you have against referenced regulators but it is not a large additional hassle to use one. Have you ever tried one before? I will never run a vehicle in performance applications without one. It makes tuning easier, especially at idle. It will add 10 or 20% life to the fuel pump. Do you simply not believe me?
its free bro. Stack up 15% a few times and I just bought your 7th new fuel pump free for you, 14,000 run hours from now. Or saved you $15 on your 2nd one. However you want to interpolate for $99 fuel pumps. It is less work for you over the course of 2,200 run hours.All testing on Aeromotive fuel pumps for durability is done at 60-PSI. We typically see 2,000 run hours from a 340 Stealth Pump at 60-PSI and 13.5 volts. That said, lower pressure and/or slower speed can extend pump life, but you would need to change injectors (possibly) and retune the ECU (certainly) if you plan to run lower pressure.
Hope that helps, let us know if you need further assistance and thanks for choosing Aeromotive!
Brett Clow
Tech Director
Aeromotive, Inc.
7805 Barton St.
Lenexa, KS 66214
913-647-7300 Ext. 109
also did I mention it makes tuning easier? Not everybody wants to fight at 0.977ms with a 1500cc injector sitting on 12:1 at idle. I Like my plugs clean from carbon and that means 15.1 to 15.5 a/f ratio at a steady 650 to 700rpm range. Good luck at 60psi on gasoline
literally awesome advice, absolutely pertinent and applicable to this situation, no down side, easy to implement, control theory 101: ur damn lucky I am around to point this shit out
also, don't change. I appreciate a skeptical approach to new ideas. The problem is in order for it to work you have to be able to identify when an idea is good and not just assume every idea is bad just because it doesn't fit ur heuristics. I've noticed a trend of that on the internet discussions when an idea is like a planet and you've never used a telescope before. Name one down side to using a referenced regulator, for example. Just one and we can discuss its pros and cons. Otherwise all I see is pros, you've given no good reasoning for why a reference wouldn't be useful.
Last edited by kingtal0n; 12-04-2021 at 10:48 PM.
What's the ratio of number of forums you've joined vs. number of forums you're banned from, for doing this exact same thing to every single thread you post in?
Doing what? Giving the best possible technical advice that you can for performance reliability applications anywhere on any forum?
I've been doing this for a long time and as a computer technician with control theory background (to get a PhD in Mechanical Engineering it is a requirement to understand Control Theory), there are many things that I notice that nobody else does, things you won't see or find anywhere else or from anybody else. It is the unique nature from my point of view, I guess.
In 2003, I was created software to automatically tune my twin turbo SEQ_EFI 5.7L SBC engine before widebands were available at a hobbyist level. In 03' Iirc wideband is $500 or around that, and it used a giant box with a digital LED window like a clock. I Know because I eventually got one when they dropped to 250 ranges and realized how ridiculous the narrowband is. I never used a narrowband on any of my cars, since then.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/dfi-...der-950-a.html
20 years ago, I have already done something that only recently modern efi systems have really begun to do reliably. Something that few people will ever understand where to even begin
'You' Anyone can be as good as me, but you can't be any better. Once you know everything there is to know about performance reliability there is nothing else new to throw a wrench into the mental shortcuts. You must have a background in chemistry, organic chemistry, and fluid mechanics at least, to conceptualize fluid molecular movements and make rapid observations concerning fluid flow and molecular interactions of hydrocarbons and forward reactions concerning carbon, this is how I discovered that PCV system is the most important system on a performance engine, it works with the oil and air filter systems to maintain the cleanliness of the crankcase and helps retain oil inside the engine.
I've diagnosed hundreds and tuned hundreds, pretty much every viable combination and engine displacement available, 1.8L, 2L, 2.4, 2.5, 2.6, 3.0 mostly from 2007 to 2012 and then I started getting into the LS stuff because JDM engines got expensive and old (they stopped making the turbo SR/RB/2J in 2002). The top isn't about how much power you can make. It's more about cleanliness and simplicity, and understanding basic functions such as PCV which seem to elude... practically everyone... and without which you cannot fully expect to master combustion engine theory.
5.3/4l80e/turbo playthrough
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ge-budget.html
cancer research
https://www.mdpi.com/2306-5354/10/1/96
What was the original problem to be solved here? A filter/regulator that could not bypass enough volume to keep the fuel pressure at the regulated set point.
What is the solution? A regulator that CAN bypass enough volume to keep the fuel pressure at the regulated set point. Done. There is no whitepaper theoretical stargazing required.
ASE Master+L1 here, 20+ years real world experience in dealerships and indy shops, typically assigned the role of the guy who got the cars no one else could figure out. Even some experience as machinist/engine builder. Also too a few years in a GM-supplier factory. But please, tell us more about how PCV systems work. F'ing LOL.
While I post on performance forums,number of forums you're banned from,
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1599316990
Some will say 'genius' which of course is ridiculous. Many thousands of scientists study and develop therapeutic treatment for cancer (I have a grant from the NIH) and they are not called genius. It is simply the exposed population isn't used to seeing such unusual ideas, I think.
I am not banned for being unusual.
Like with anything, there are haters. "Enemies make you stronger, friends weaker" where did I hear that.
I frequently build setups for random engines out on paper and tune ECU that I've never seen before, such as HPtuners in my car.
I won't tune an engine that doesn't meet my standard procedure, which is a cookie cutter recipe for 200,000 miles of reliability derived from experience and observations over 20 years.
et al,
All ECU use the same basic functions, trigger systems, inputs & outputs, tuning methodology never changes between ECU. They are all the same plus or minus features which have nothing to do with basic necessity for operation.
Control theory fills the gap between software, setup of hardware and explains responses from the hardware, and can be used to dial in the ideal response. Even when the hardware or software is inadequate, as the engineer you are able to develop circuits and software which can work between pieces of hardware as a stand-alone deal if necessary, which means any signal is fair game for reconstruction or reproduction with modification. There is no piece of hardware or output from any ECU That I cannot alter to suit my needs, because the combustion engine is so very simple in operation (it does not need electronics at all to operate) there is no ceiling or skill cap penalty for not being familiar with every piece of hardware ever invented, you simply understand the signals and amplifier and clock cycle nature of the unit as a theoretical entity capable of interpreting signals and outputting necessary ones as a response.
Finally, unraveling or understanding every OEM system and it's features at a molecular level, being able to explain phenomena that nobody at the hobby level has considered or even noticed, or that it is very rare to notice some feature or explain some long-term result or consequence of disabling those systems which seem unimportant as PCV. This combination of experience and education, cannot be replaced by either of itself, as I was additionally able to examine around a thousand import engines or so over the course of 5 years and draw conclusions from that experience that typical hobby level will never manifest. In particular, I noticed many 220,000km 3.0L turbo engines 2jz-gte arriving here in America looking brand new yet, glistening compressor wheels, golden tone oil, super clean smelling great. Every one of those engines had intact OEM air filter systems and a factory PCV system. It was an observation which led me down a pathway to vacuum pump crankcase scavenging research, and many years later after fluid mechanics I was able to 'see' the pressure differential applied to crankcase volume via air filter pathway as playing a critical role in engine longevity. The 600 and 700rwhp 3L engines downstream of 220,000km lived another 10 years or longer, lost track of.
Combustion engines are simple devices from the point of view of fluids and mechanical properties. Very macroscopic even though modelling is done to the nanometer in some places I bet. Nanometers is no issue for modern computers, to design an engine well enough.
Almost none to none of the freshman engineers I teach are interested in car-related engineering. Nobody in engineering classes cares about a fast car or knowing how to work on cars. It isn't considered an applicable or important for job-related.
It is considered a undesirable engineering field to design car related systems, I guess. Everything combustion related has been hashed out and rehashed, modeled well. Efficiency for gasoline combustion has been near its limit since 90's for many manufacturers in terms of performance related because of computer modelling and empirical testing, data interpretation, mechanics of materials, etc.. so once you learn about 90's foreign motors and 02+ Chevrolet stuff you've basically seen everything, just the repeat cookie cutter design in every modern engine across the board, because the further forwards we go in time, the more modelling and shared schematics and copied designs with small modifications becomes common. In other words there are already 'perfected' designs which wear very low rates, last a long time, performance parts, and there tend to be one major intersection for the design strategy that can't be replaced without some draw backs.
Cars has always been a hobby for me, never a job. I never worked anywhere as a mechanic, most of what I've done was as a volunteer. You don't goto college for engineering to become a mechanic or engine tuning, they don't teach that stuff in school.
You have far more car-related certificates and work experience than I do, ever will. But that does not change the fact that being a good possibly great mechanic and diagnostician has nothing to do with engineering and the background for how the engine was designed.
The issue I perceive between our perspectives, is that I am a connesu... connesuir... connoisseur of efficiency, the way some people are of what I assume is 'fine wine'.
While others are simply interested in getting drunk.
So here I get you are saying "just fix it" like "just get drunk, ethanol is ethanol".
And what I am saying is "upgrade the wine to something great tasting because it's free anyways and will prolong your health and lifespan of parts".
Maybe you have to believe I am not here saying to use a referenced regulator just to look smart. I am actually trying to help you understand the value of the reference, which you are blatantly neglecting. I get that you can fix the problem using a non-reference. But if you are buying a regulator anyways and have to tune the car anyways it doesn't make sense not to include the reference thanks to the benefits I already listed.
Looking forward to the unification of physics theorem to be posted in this thread
Don't stop now boys.
Anyways, that spreadsheet references 400kpa(58psi) but the SEP website indicates those flow rate numbers would be closer to 296kpa(43psi)???
I am assuming you have these:
https://www.snakeeaterperformance.co...00cc-injectors
You will need to know what psi the flow rate table from SEP represents, 43psi or 58psi. I am going to assume the flow rate table in the spreadsheet you posted is for 43psi just because it more closely matches the injectors I assume you have from the SEP website. So, if you choose to use 58psi in your fuel system you will need to adjust the flow rate table for 58psi. sqrt(new pressure/old pressure) x Old Flow Rate = New Flow rate
Can you run the stock Lq4 return rail? I have zero issue with 58psi base pressure, factory truck vacuum regulator, walbro 450 and SEP1000's on my 78/75 LQ4. Just made 615/670 on e85 and a measly 9lbs of boost through this combo and I've run it at 14lbs of boost the past 2 years. No need to overcomplicate a simple system that doesn't actually need it. You can chase "gains" all day long by most of these are not justifiable.
I just assumed that the injector data in the spreadsheet was for 58psi? I guess ill have to figure that out as well, I think I will send them an email to find out for sure, and yes those are the injectors that I have.
I ran the stock return style rail before I switched over to an LS1 intake for hood clearance issues. I probably could make them work with a custom cross over line but I think I will just stick to the ls1 style unless I decide to upgrade in the future. Also, did you gap your rings before running 14lbs? I plan on staying at 10lbs and occasionally switching to 14lbs if I think I need it just to be safe.
Use the LS1 return rail then, it'll work the same as the truck. Just need an early LS1 rail.
No my plugs are not gapped. I've had the oil pan off for an oil pump o-ring and gasket replacement and the front cover off to slap the cam in but aside from that the engine is an unknown mileage, untouched junkyard 6.0. I'll be turning it up in the 20lb range after christmas.
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