2019 Ford F150 Whipple Gen5 Stg2 - throttle jumping

[kcevo]

Mods:
Stg2 Gen 5 Whipple Kit with 132mm Throttle Body
ID1050xds Injectors
LT Headers
Catted Y Pipe

When cruising and light throttle tip in you can induce the throttle to fluctuate/shutter like crazy which in turn you hear the blower surging. Map kpa jumps around as does timing advance. I have tried quite a few changes all day with no luck in what is causing this issue. Attached the latest revision on the drive home tonight along with the log. It's about 9 mins into the log where you can see the issue.

Attachment 115971Attachment 115972

[veeefour]

I think your desired load might be requesting too much, try lowering these a bit:

image.png

[murfie]

Looks like a MAP sensor or MAP sensor wiring issue to me.
I don't think the ECU could control anything and make the MAP sensor report this behavior if it wanted to, 300 cycles per minute with a 4-5 PSI differential. Plausibility check to me says the sensor is reporting inaccurate voltages when its doing this. Its not very pressure range specific either. My guess is manifold pressure is not actually doing that. Pressure sensors that exhibit this behavior are usually too sensitive, and a snubber is put in front of them to reduce these fluctuations. For a more accurate reading and to extend the life of the sensor.

Like a MAF sensor, your MAP sensor signal is extremely important to the drivability. MAP sensors are just usually a lot more forgiving to where they get their reference from, and a lot more stable.

Kcevo.jpg


Kcevo2.jpg

[kcevo]

Looks like a MAP sensor or MAP sensor wiring issue to me.
I don't think the ECU could control anything and make the MAP sensor report this behavior if it wanted to, 300 cycles per minute with a 4-5 PSI differential. Plausibility check to me says the sensor is reporting inaccurate voltages when its doing this. Its not very pressure range specific either. My guess is manifold pressure is not actually doing that. Pressure sensors that exhibit this behavior are usually too sensitive, and a snubber is put in front of them to reduce these fluctuations. For a more accurate reading and to extend the life of the sensor.

Like a MAF sensor, your MAP sensor signal is extremely important to the drivability. MAP sensors are just usually a lot more forgiving to where they get their reference from, and a lot more stable.

Kcevo.jpg


Kcevo2.jpg

The map sensor is in the location per the whipple kit, with an extension harness from them. Harness isn't pinched either. You can see that the throttle angle is jumping around as well which i can see if it fluctuates like a boost solenoid will also make the map sensor reading along with the actual load jump the same as the are tied together; ie more map more load, less map less load.

Also if it were the map sensor i would expect it to have issues when normal cruising or when giving it more throttle, and in those situations it is smooth and acts normal.

[kcevo]

I think your desired load might be requesting too much, try lowering these a bit:

image.png

I tried the change you suggested and it seems to be better, but i can induce the same exact scenario with throttle around 20-30% and rpm in the 2k rpm area.

[mbray01]

ITS A TORQUE MODEL/DRIVER DEMAND/ETC EFFECTIVE AREA MISMATCH. THAT THOTTLE BODY FLOWS MASSIVELY MORE THAN STOCK, AND THE ECM IS TRYING TO FOLLOW THE THROTTLE SCHEDULE BUT CANNOT. GET TORQUE AND DRIVER DEMAND IN LINE, THEN "TUNE" the effective area to get the correct tps position.

[murfie]

The map sensor is in the location per the whipple kit, with an extension harness from them. Harness isn't pinched either. You can see that the throttle angle is jumping around as well which i can see if it fluctuates like a boost solenoid will also make the map sensor reading along with the actual load jump the same as the are tied together; ie more map more load, less map less load.

Also if it were the map sensor i would expect it to have issues when normal cruising or when giving it more throttle, and in those situations it is smooth and acts normal.

In those images I showed desired load, thats what the ECU is commanding from demanded torque. Like I said previously, you can not make the torque tables follow an air load that is wildly jumping around like that. You could not set them up to cause a wildly jumping around air load based on a MAP sensor either. You could not setup the throttle body model to jump wildly around like that either, you could make the range of effective areas and angles cover the ETC vac., but thats not an accurate model. The pressure in the manifold just can't change that fast. You have air coming in a limited throttle opening, and air leaving through limited cylinder head ports. The plenum is a large reservoir of air, acting like a buffer, compared to those two volumes of air.

Either way air load is jumping around above desired load in those situations, so lowering desired load wouldn't help. This jumpiness is shutting the throttle, and quickly opening it back up, from where its happy trying to bring load back down in line. If desired load was above air load, it would be opening it then quickly closing it.

Air straighteners for MAF sensors
Snubbers for MAP sensors
Stop trying to tune from garbage data being collected.

Before and after a snubber on an external MAP sensor, the one the ECU looks at would be the same.

before&after snubber.jpg

[veeefour]

Oscillations like that can never be fixed 100%.
For that you would need to have more sensors like TIP etc.
This is even more problematic with turbo, you are requesting too much load from TB and model is trying to compensate. Blowtrough logic is there to help you can try that but you are never going yo make it perfect. And this is 100% load/torque request despite what others might say...

Try to lower map delta more, might also try to redude DD torque in that area. Or TB tables as suggested but i do t like to touch TB tables unless its a must.

[murfie]

Lower your WOT start to like 40-50%, and put it in open loop throttle control sooner. That band aid always seems to work for others. Just keep going lower with it until the throttle angles you are having trouble with are covered.

[engineermike]

This is interesting. I tend to think a lot of the observations are effects, not causes (like timing and maybe MAP). The desired load is steady but the actual load starts oscillating around it. It's almost as if it's an unstable control system. Another note is that the desired vs actual load strays more than I would expect even when it's not oscillating. If it were mine, I would zero the Integral gains under Airflow - Electronic Throttle - Feedback Control as a test. This would disable the PID feedback loop on throttle position load correction and force it to just command the predicted throttle angle with no corrections that can hide your problem. The result of this test will help start zeroing in on the source of the problem.

Just a safety note - any time I play with throttle body control system settings, I keep my finger near the kill button just in case.

If you have access to another throttle body, you might try it. There is a decent chance this is a mechanical issue.

Edit, it might be worth logging both TPS sensors at a high data rate. Also, cut the PID list down to about 4 and max the data rate for this test.

[GHuggins]

In those images I showed desired load, thats what the ECU is commanding from demanded torque. Like I said previously, you can not make the torque tables follow an air load that is wildly jumping around like that. You could not set them up to cause a wildly jumping around air load based on a MAP sensor either. You could not setup the throttle body model to jump wildly around like that either, you could make the range of effective areas and angles cover the ETC vac., but thats not an accurate model. The pressure in the manifold just can't change that fast. You have air coming in a limited throttle opening, and air leaving through limited cylinder head ports. The plenum is a large reservoir of air, acting like a buffer, compared to those two volumes of air.

Either way air load is jumping around above desired load in those situations, so lowering desired load wouldn't help. This jumpiness is shutting the throttle, and quickly opening it back up, from where its happy trying to bring load back down in line. If desired load was above air load, it would be opening it then quickly closing it.

Air straighteners for MAF sensors
Snubbers for MAP sensors
Stop trying to tune from garbage data being collected.

Before and after a snubber on an external MAP sensor, the one the ECU looks at would be the same.

before&after snubber.jpg

What brand or make of snubber are you using with these map sensors?

[murfie]

JM FAB 2G MAP SENSOR ADAPTER to adapt OEM sensors to vacuum line

Torque solutions or dizzy performance to adapt the hole, the OEM sensors usually go into, to vacuum line. Or block it off if you have other threaded ports already available.

Omega PS-8G snubbers in-between manifold and MAP sensors work great.

[mbray01]

Oscillations like that can never be fixed 100%.
For that you would need to have more sensors like TIP etc.
This is even more problematic with turbo, you are requesting too much load from TB and model is trying to compensate. Blowtrough logic is there to help you can try that but you are never going yo make it perfect. And this is 100% load/torque request despite what others might say...

Try to lower map delta more, might also try to redude DD torque in that area. Or TB tables as suggested but i do t like to touch TB tables unless its a must.

I literally just did one that the logs looked identical to this, had me pulling my hair out. just had to step back and correct the torque issues, then driver demand, then correct tb tables. its all fixable, just takes patience

[veeefour]

I literally just did one that the logs looked identical to this, had me pulling my hair out. just had to step back and correct the torque issues, then driver demand, then correct tb tables. its all fixable, just takes patience

yes it is...to me or to you...but have "those" customers wanting it to run better than stock...they can spent hours on "inducing" things like that on purpose...

Just a MAF sensor is not enough to run like a car that was build with turbo STOCK...

Most factory turbo cars have: map, maf, tip, boost control solenoid and more... you can turn it out good working on MAF only but...

[mbray01]

yes it is...to me or to you...but have "those" customers wanting it to run better than stock...they can spent hours on "inducing" things like that on purpose...

Just a maf sensor is not enough to run like a car that was build with turbo stock...as you have like.

Most factory turbo cars have: Map, maf, tip, boost control solenoid and more... You can turn it out good working on maf only but...

and couple that with parts from suppliers who dont provide good calibration data with their products, and things just get worse.

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what tables