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Thread: Acceleration "boomerang" effect - Trying to figure it out

  1. #21
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
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    704
    I'm not going to get too heavy into throwing out random suggestions as to how to fix your tune. However, I am going to suggest one concrete thing. You state you have 6.1 injectors installed in the vehicle, so my question after looking at your injector data would be, why didn't you use the OEM 6.1 injector data that is available from many different OEM calibrations that have been posted both on the forums and the repository? I understand that not all of it translates directly over from different PCM OS table layouts vs your PCM table layout. But there's enough data there to get it damn close.

    Your Inj PW vs Fuel Mass / Fuel Mass vs Inj PW tables are in some instances close'ish (with a few massive exceptions that I'll depict in this post). But your Inj PW offset data (which, again, isn't going to be a direct copy/paste affair) is off by an average of about 5% over the entire range in the 0 pressure column (the 6.1 calibrations lacking any sort of pressure definition in said table).

    Let me show you what I mean with your fuel mass vs pw tables, and how far off they are from OEM defined calibration.

    Here's the overall data comparison with the 0 point data being omitted (modified section being your data, stock being OEM supplied 6.1 injector data). Notice the 825% deviation from stock in the lowest PW row.
    6.1_injector_data_1.JPG

    Now, here's removing the lowest PW data point so we can get some better graph resolution to see how the rest of the data fairs. We still see that the lowest existing data point here shows a deviation of 160% from stock, and we start to see a little more definition in the remaining data points.
    6.1_injector_data_2.JPG

    Still, we can get even better resolution by removing the 160% deviation data point to see what the rest of the data looks like, and here's the result.
    6.1_injector_data_3.JPG

    So, I know there are some differences in the PW breakpoints and they don't always line up exactly. But they're not so far away from nominal that you can't see that there are some definite discrepancies. It would be my personal suggestion that you use the data that the OEM supplies for their 6.1 calibrations as closely as possible. There is an extra cell in the Mass vs PW / PW vs Mass tables. It's simple enough to create an extra data point (whether interpolated or extrapolated) at the end of your range, and using the same normalized factor (mg/ms - which is fuel mass divided by pulsewidth), select an arbitrary PW value to multiply that normalizer/multiplier by to get a Fuel Mass value for it. Conversely, you can simply make the extra cell value in your calibration identical to the last available cell value data in the 6.1 calibration, meaning your last 2 values (let's assume you actually use the OEM supplied data - in that case the PW value is 100, and mG value is 442.47 - so the last 2 cells would just repeat that).

    As for the Inj PW Offset table, I'd just ensure that at least the 0 pressure row is identical to the data that is available in the 6.1 calibration. From there, it may take some experimentation while monitoring fuel trims during light throttle/vacuum scenarios to get the offset data closer in the vacuum sections of the Inj PW Offset table. Of course, having a control with VE would be nice to make that more easily achieved, but that will be quite difficult given you don't have a good control with your VE map (given the nature of your Frankenstein setup).

    Start with accurate (or as close to accurate as you can get) injector data, and a lot of other issues you're dealing with may possibly disappear.

    If I have missed a calibration that has tables more similar in nature to those in your calibration that also use 6.1 injectors from the factory (and that's where you derived your injector data from), let me know so I can update my information. But I don't believe there to be a calibration with tables like yours that used 6.1 injectors. So, interpolation and extrapolation will be key in getting at least the injector data portion of your tune ironed out.
    Last edited by B00STJUNKY; 01-13-2022 at 11:44 PM.

  2. #22
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    16
    Great input all. Everything I'm doing is at a self taught/forum taught level so will be the first to admit it could be obvious and I just don't know how to look at it.

    Thanks for breaking that down Boots. I have looked for stock 6.1 injector data and couldn't find anything spelled out and think my skill wasn't enough to convert it from a 6.1 read, that and I assumed the original shop and the hired remote tuner would have had those correct (specifically the paid guy as I told him I felt those and the cam settings were not correct). Ill get those corrected and update when I have a test run.

  3. #23
    Tuning Addict
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    Jan 2015
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    Franklin, NC / Gainesville, Ga
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    You can use those cam tables I posted - works good for stocker cams as well. Just use your factory stop settings. I did miss the injector data being wrong as I honestly don't even remember reading that in the build info. Good catch BoostJunky on that one. Those last spark tables are 87 suitable tables, so again should be suitable for you and the throttle tables should have the high idle addressed.

    You paid for that original tune? Really thought it was something thrown together by yourself? People wonder why this industry has gone so far down hill too......
    Last edited by GHuggins; 01-14-2022 at 09:55 PM.
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  4. #24
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    16
    Hey Brother, it takes a village to combat bad runners!

    You nailed it BoostJunky!!!!

    I'll post some data here in a. It, my laptop died. I applied the 6.1 data on my original tune and it was 100% noticably better. Had a little "runaway" feeling but I'm getting that smooth out a little in the large table. Actually just in testing tonight I've been through about three different tunes after I use the stock one a combo that injector data with the original tune you sent me GHiggins. Kind of a hybrid so to speak. Felt a little idle high still but not even close to what it was so I've done a couple of different combinations working on different things to feel it out but honestly I knew posting on here would give me the answers I need and I didn't want to post too early and be a good I wanted to do some due diligence so I cannot think all of you guys enough. The sad part is I got the car back with HP tuners on it after the motor swap and I never used it before and their tune was almost as bad as the work they did doing the motor swap and that's freaking horrible. After doing some tuning and of course deconstructing everything they did and reconstructing it and doing it right over the next year and a half I actually hired another tuner out of Texas to do a remote tuna work with me and she did pretty good but I just felt like he was running it by the numbers and wasn't focused on Dodges as much as a diesels and things like that. Sadly the world's gotten to the point where I just do all my own work now because I can't find a damn mechanic where the shit and I'm older and pickier I think LOL.

    I also figured out and I don't know why it took this long for me to have this epiphany but when I was using the compare feature with a downloaded 6.12 and running them against mine it was never listing the injector data that's why I kept having Hang-Ups on that stuff is because I couldn't find the numbers to input them but because they wouldn't be scanned with like the latest beta or the version I could never get the data to come through on the compare tables after reading your post boost I don't know why but I was like oh why don't you just open up a second window and load it single. Duh, my God sometimes you just can't see the forest through the trees. But that gave me set data and I ran comparisons over seven or eight different tunes 5.7 versus 6.1's to get happy mediums. To add to the complexity of this it's a 2013 pursuit motor and a 2010 with 6.1 heads and cam blah blah blah so a lot of times I try to run 2013 and 2010 make sure that they all match up and then I'll compare 5.7 versus the 6.1 depending on what I'm looking at upper end or bottom and wise.

    I actually would like to work with you a little GHiggins. California Max we have is 91 octane but I typically only run 89 and above so I room in those timing and spark tables to up the octane a little I used to only run 91 till California decided that my first born wasn't worth a tank of gas anymore. Still no there's a lot of fine-tuning to go but I got to tell you guys the car... This is what the car was supposed to run like! This is been a huge long ordeal. I got it as a present for the wife I asked her if she wanted the mommy makeover or a V8 she said a V8 so I got her V8 and I was happy shopped for a place that did swaps and was well known thought I got the right one and they sucked they had the car for three and a half months the stereo got stolen out of it they replaced that when they handed it to me it was just a nightmare I've redone everything that that shop did just short of pulling the block. Tranny went out I replaced the rear end all the suspension work they did I had to redo it all cuz I didn't even torque it down correctly so it's it's been one of those things where I tried to make it right for the wife cuz I kind of took her car and thought I was paying the right guys to do a right and they didn't. This is the final puzzle piece I've got everything in this car to the t set up and badass and for some reason I just couldn't get this hump down and I've talked to a lot of people and I've done a lot of tuning and a lot of testing and man you guys are the shit.

  5. #25
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    704
    Glad that helped out so much.

    I consider myself a minimalist when it comes to making changes from a stock calibratiin to suit a set of modifications. Don't go changing more than you have to. And if what you're altering in the calibration doesn't seem to make sense given the mods you have, you might want to take a step back and reevaluate things.

    But when it comes to sensor (think MAP sensor) and injector data in the calibration, those things HAVE to be accurate for what's being used. Otherwise you may as well throw the whole tune out the window. And when there's OEM calibration data available, that's the first place to source it, even if it requires extrapolation and/or interpolation.

  6. #26
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    16

    So much better

    Hi all,

    What a difference a change makes! I reworked things from a base tune I have mirroring a stock 5.7 for the most part with a little 6.1 here and there for what I felt would be effected by the 6.1 cam and heads. So far the injector change stands out as being my main issue. HPT never ceases to amaze me in its abilities. The fact myself and others (big shout out to GHuggins for all your help) were able to tune around that and it still perform is pretty amazing. I'm hoping you guys can give an eyeball to this latest tune version and scan data and give any input on anything you see. Seems everything I learn just teaches me how much I don't know lol.

    Thanks again for all the input so far. Wow, so in love with my car again/
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