2003 5.9 Auto Tune Review

[iaff284]

Hey all, Attached is the tune that I have been running for the past couple years. Due to a head gasket failure and a couple of crack injectors I have upgraded the turbo to a stock HE351CW and am swapping in a set of 50hp injectors. Based on the tune should I adjust anywhere for the new injectors and better turbo? TIAMB modified tune2D.hpt

[JaegerWrenching]

This strategy is missing a bunch of tables including your main fueling and timing tables along with a few limiters.

Hey all, Attached is the tune that I have been running for the past couple years. Due to a head gasket failure and a couple of crack injectors I have upgraded the turbo to a stock HE351CW and am swapping in a set of 50hp injectors. Based on the tune should I adjust anywhere for the new injectors and better turbo? TIAMB modified tune2D.hpt

[iaff284]

When I open the tune in VCM Editor, click on the engine tab, it has the idle, airflow, fuel, diesel fueling, diesel timing and torque management tabs across the top. The diesel fueling and diesel timing appear to have all the fueling and timing tables along with the limits. The Fuel sys tab has all the fueling tables and limits listed. Which ones aren?t there?

[iaff284]

Anyone?

[B00STJUNKY]

Anyone?

It's possible (and likely) that JaegerWrenching was viewing your calibration while in basic mode.

About the only other possibility is that he's comparing a newer model year calibration (05+) to your older 03 calibration, which by default has fewer tables than the later models.

[iaff284]

Thanks Boostjunky, I was more interested in if anyone had any input on adjusting the tune.

[JaegerWrenching]

It's possible (and likely) that JaegerWrenching was viewing your calibration while in basic mode.

About the only other possibility is that he's comparing a newer model year calibration (05+) to your older 03 calibration, which by default has fewer tables than the later models.

I wish either of those two assumptions were true for tuning sake! Anyone tuned one of these with HPT and have a data log that shows anyone commanding 165mm3 or more and actually hitting that target without any limiters coming into affect on one of these 03-04 ecus?

[B00STJUNKY]

I wish either of those two assumptions were true for tuning sake! Anyone tuned one of these with HPT and have a data log that shows anyone commanding 165mm3 or more and actually hitting that target without any limiters coming into affect on one of these 03-04 ecus?

I've never tried commanding any more than 145mm3, as that gives me full fueling on the 03 that I tuned (140mm3 for main event, just under 5mm3 for pilot). But I had no issues reaching 145mm3.

Why do you want to command 165mm3? Are you running 25mm3 of pilot?

[JaegerWrenching]

I've never tried commanding any more than 145mm3, as that gives me full fueling on the 03 that I tuned (140mm3 for main event, just under 5mm3 for pilot). But I had no issues reaching 145mm3.

Why do you want to command 165mm3? Are you running 25mm3 of pilot?

If you have compounds or a bigger turbo you'll most definitely want to be able to command more than 140mm3, can you just alter the PW map and still use the 140mm3 column as your total commanded fuel amount? Sure you can, but then those number won't reflect even close to the actual MM3 amount being injected, especially when you get into bigger injectors. By increasing your injector pw map you've altered the once accurate PW map and made it inaccurate to get more mm3/fuel injected. But it's an unknown amount of fuel/mm3 being injected into the cylinder... So your next question would be, is it required to know how much fuel you're injecting? Truth be told No it isn't, but we do mix lbs of air with lbs of fuel to make consistent and accurate mixtures for good boom boom and good smoke limiting right? So being able to do quick math with accurate data is convenient at worst and accurate at best! It also allows us to send tunes with consistency especially when bigger injectors are involved for smoke limiting/lambda control. I always like people to ask themselves if they've ever altered their stock PW map by increasing the last columns over stock on any diesel. If the answer is yes, well then you yourself are guilty of asking for more than 140mm3 or what ever that stock pw map is calibrated to. So to answer your question, why do i want to command 165mm3 or more? Because it's what the truck is actually spraying for fuel amount and i want to know how much fuel is being injected into the engine and it makes smoke limiting easy and consistent. You are probably pretty close to 165mm3 on your own truck if not actually over 165mm3 if you've altered your pw map if had to guess! You just don't know what you're flowing without flowing the injectors on a bench or extrapolating the pw map to a higher mm3. Modern diesel's go away from mm3 as it's volume and the density of that volume increases and decreases with temp, we all know engines and fuel rail temps change often! Which is why they use mg/stroke over mm3/stroke on modern diesel's. It's just a back end equation taking these conditions into consideration and adjusting the total mm3 to meet the desired mg/weight amount. Mg/stroke is weight to weight, again lbs of air to lbs of fuel tends to make more sense when you think about it! As for this file it's missing the other air density maps as there is more than just low air density and transient. Otherwise it'd be transient and main fueling, not low air density! If you used HPT to tune your truck and it's an 03-04 i bet your timing and fueling amounts are not following your commanded amount exactly as it should. This is because of the other tables at play not defined in this software currently. I've asked for them to be added so i'm hoping they will be soon! In the tune posted by the OP you can't even see the WOT fuel limiters i posted in my pics, they just aren't defined yet unfortunately. I'm also willing to bet your truck is hitting this exact limiter and an RPM limiter not defined as well. I'm not trying to come off as mean or rude. I don't know everything and i make mistakes. I'm passionate about diesel tuning, say things directly without hesitation, but ultimately I like to help people and help get tables added so we can all tune these trucks well. main fuel missing.PNGmain timing low air dens.PNGmain fueling limits.PNGMain timing all desnities.PNG

[iaff284]

Thanks Jaeger for the info. I am glad there are guys like you that keep pushing for more tables to be loaded for tgeae older trucks. I would love to get some trans tables from the tcm put in!

I am limited on my diesel tuning knowledge. I do know that my truck with that posted tune runs like a totally different animal! I am happy with the performance of the tune. It runs hard and clean with a small amout of smoke on hard acceleration. Based on the tables available do you feel the need to adjust anything for the 30% injectors and slightly better breathing turbo or just let it ride as is?

[Jim P]

The 03-04 trucks does not have 5 operating modes, will be extremely difficult for anyone to add those when they don?t exist

[B00STJUNKY]

The 03-04 trucks does not have 5 operating modes, will be extremely difficult for anyone to add those when they don?t exist

Thanks, Jim.

If you have compounds or a bigger turbo you'll most definitely want to be able to command more than 140mm3, can you just alter the PW map and still use the 140mm3 column as your total commanded fuel amount? Sure you can, but then those number won't reflect even close to the actual MM3 amount being injected, especially when you get into bigger injectors. By increasing your injector pw map you've altered the once accurate PW map and made it inaccurate to get more mm3/fuel injected. But it's an unknown amount of fuel/mm3 being injected into the cylinder... So your next question would be, is it required to know how much fuel you're injecting? Truth be told No it isn't, but we do mix lbs of air with lbs of fuel to make consistent and accurate mixtures for good boom boom and good smoke limiting right? So being able to do quick math with accurate data is convenient at worst and accurate at best! It also allows us to send tunes with consistency especially when bigger injectors are involved for smoke limiting/lambda control. I always like people to ask themselves if they've ever altered their stock PW map by increasing the last columns over stock on any diesel. If the answer is yes, well then you yourself are guilty of asking for more than 140mm3 or what ever that stock pw map is calibrated to. So to answer your question, why do i want to command 165mm3 or more? Because it's what the truck is actually spraying for fuel amount and i want to know how much fuel is being injected into the engine and it makes smoke limiting easy and consistent. You are probably pretty close to 165mm3 on your own truck if not actually over 165mm3 if you've altered your pw map if had to guess! You just don't know what you're flowing without flowing the injectors on a bench or extrapolating the pw map to a higher mm3. Modern diesel's go away from mm3 as it's volume and the density of that volume increases and decreases with temp, we all know engines and fuel rail temps change often! Which is why they use mg/stroke over mm3/stroke on modern diesel's. It's just a back end equation taking these conditions into consideration and adjusting the total mm3 to meet the desired mg/weight amount. Mg/stroke is weight to weight, again lbs of air to lbs of fuel tends to make more sense when you think about it! As for this file it's missing the other air density maps as there is more than just low air density and transient. Otherwise it'd be transient and main fueling, not low air density! If you used HPT to tune your truck and it's an 03-04 i bet your timing and fueling amounts are not following your commanded amount exactly as it should. This is because of the other tables at play not defined in this software currently. I've asked for them to be added so i'm hoping they will be soon! In the tune posted by the OP you can't even see the WOT fuel limiters i posted in my pics, they just aren't defined yet unfortunately. I'm also willing to bet your truck is hitting this exact limiter and an RPM limiter not defined as well. I'm not trying to come off as mean or rude. I don't know everything and i make mistakes. I'm passionate about diesel tuning, say things directly without hesitation, but ultimately I like to help people and help get tables added so we can all tune these trucks well. main fuel missing.PNGmain timing low air dens.PNGmain fueling limits.PNGMain timing all desnities.PNG

JaegerWrenching, this is what I meant when I mentioned you must be comparing the 03 calibration to the tables available in an 05+ calibration (might even have the extra tables to some degree in the 04 calibrations). They can't be added without creating a custom Operating System, which HP Tuners isn't offering (beyond the SCI parameter broadcast patch). The 03 ECMs, from my understanding, simply don't have either the processing power and/or the RAM or physical memory to accommodate all those extra tables.

I understand where you're coming from in wishing you could correlate actual fuel flow to the PW map and pedal command. But I'm not sure it's realistic to expect to be able to do that with hard-coded limiters. Put 150% over injectors in, then extend your PW map to reflect 300+ mm3, and see if (even in the 05+ OS with the additional tables) it ever allows you to command 300+ mm3.

I'm not saying I've tried it. But I'd be surprised if it could be done (and would wonder why it's not more commonly done if it can). I like idealistic methods as well, but early on I was taught by some reputable diesel Tuners that it's an unrealistic expectation given hard limiters that we don't have access to, even in the most well defined calibrations. Perhaps that's inaccurate, and is my own fault for not challenging that school of thought. But I've always been able to accomplish whatever goal I've had while staying within a range of 140 mm3.

Could things be better with more resolution? I'm sure they could. Short of a full standalone ECM, is it a reasonable expectation? The general concensus seems to indicate it's not. But I'm open to correction there.

I don't often tune diesels other than my own compounded truck, and a couple friend's relatively stock trucks, so it's not of great concern to me.

[Jim P]

04.5 trucks are much more like the 05-07 as far as parameters and how the ecm itself operates. 03 to early 04 ECM?s are a different breed and are pretty limited as far as parameters and operate different enough that they aren?t comparable to 04.5+ ecm?s

[JaegerWrenching]

The 03-04 trucks does not have 5 operating modes, will be extremely difficult for anyone to add those when they don?t exist

Well then I am wrong. I still feel like there is/should be a main fueling limit table related to the transient timing and what should be re-labeled as steady state main timing table. Does anyone have a data log of an 03-04 with a tuned file that goes with it? I'm curious to see how it follows the tune timing and fueling wise.

[dhoagland]

Well then I am wrong. I still feel like there is/should be a main fueling limit table related to the transient timing and what should be re-labeled as steady state main timing table. Does anyone have a data log of an 03-04 with a tuned file that goes with it? I'm curious to see how it follows the tune timing and fueling wise.

If no one else does I should be able to get one this weekend
EDIT: When I do it will be HP Tuner Tune, Bully Dog and stuff has been on the shelf for awhile

[dhoagland]

Hey all, Attached is the tune that I have been running for the past couple years. Due to a head gasket failure and a couple of crack injectors I have upgraded the turbo to a stock HE351CW and am swapping in a set of 50hp injectors. Based on the tune should I adjust anywhere for the new injectors and better turbo? TIAMB modified tune2D.hpt

This is from the hip, not any hard data behind it.
I ran your setup for a long time with Bully Dog and Edge EZ stacked. Lets say that's good for 120HP gain.
Not Towing I had Zero issues. Towing about 10K I had to watch EGT if I was pulling a long hill.

Your Tune matches 99% to one I have that claims to be a 100HP Tune.
So unless your Towing, you SHOULD be okay.

If you don't have an EGT gauge I recommend it. Mine quite so I'm stock tune for awhile.

BTW
About 6 months after upgrading I snapped my Trans input shaft. (I'm sure if you're stock Trans people have told you your on barrowed time, but if not, You have now been Warned)

[dhoagland]

This is from the hip, not any hard data behind it.
I ran your setup for a long time with Bully Dog and Edge EZ stacked. Lets say that's good for 120HP gain.
Not Towing I had Zero issues. Towing about 10K I had to watch EGT if I was pulling a long hill.

Your Tune matches 99% to one I have that claims to be a 100HP Tune.
So unless your Towing, you SHOULD be okay.

If you don't have an EGT gauge I recommend it. Mine quite so I'm stock tune for awhile.

BTW
About 6 months after upgrading I snapped my Trans input shaft. (I'm sure if you're stock Trans people have told you your on barrowed time, but if not, You have now been Warned)

EDIT to my post
EDIT... Do you have a boost elbow or an updated wastegate? I had to install the boost elbow and adjust it to get full boost. If I remember correctly the HE351 was good to 42 PSI. Also did you Turbo come with the 4" outlet elbow, and did you install it? (would require a different down pipe)...
If not yours might not flow like mine.

This is making me remember a lot of stuff I forgot about.

[iaff284]

Thanks dhoagland, I have already rebuilt my trans to handle 500hpish. I do have a boost elbow that was set for 35psi for the HE341. I was planning on setting it for 40psi for the HE351. I appreciate everyones input but feel like this thread has derailed from the original question of should I adjust the tune for the 50hp injectors or leave it alone

[dhoagland]

Thanks dhoagland, I have already rebuilt my trans to handle 500hpish. I do have a boost elbow that was set for 35psi for the HE341. I was planning on setting it for 40psi for the HE351. I appreciate everyones input but feel like this thread has derailed from the original question of should I adjust the tune for the 50hp injectors or leave it alone

The only way to really know that is by testing, remember you upgraded the turbo too.
I would start with it as a base tune and if you have issues go from there, you do have an EGT gauge correct?

I wish I knew the magic formula, I'm sure someone does.

If you are concerned about melting a piston, try (or copy differences) from this Tune. Its a little less on the Pulse Width and Timing.
It was represented as a 50HP Tune for Towing.

Then if you want more, Spilt the differences between the 2.
If you still want more go to your original

Do you know how to use the Compare function between 2 Tunes?
(Not trying to be condescending, I don't know your experience with HP Tuners)

[iaff284]

No worries, dhoagland! No offense taken! I do know how to use the compare function and appreciate the 50hp tune. The tune I posted originally I have had installed and running with stock injectors and the HE341 for 5 years with no issues up until I blew a head gasket. I had my boost elbow set to 35psi. When towing around 8000lb through the hills of Missouri I had to keep an eye on my EGTs (I do have a gauge). The blown head gasket was caused by a bolt up by the thermostat housing that lost its torque. The only one that was loose when I pulled the head to see what the issue was. The only thing I can think is that the loose bolt stretched and lost its torque. The pistons and cylinders look fine so I think my original tune is good. I just wasn't sure with the new injectors being 30% over if I should pull some pulse width out to correct for the overage or just run it and see what happens? Thanks again all and Happy New Year!!