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Thread: Optimum Torque, Normalized Torque, Torque to Load: Calculations, Effects, p061, etc

  1. #41
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    clifftoo:
    Could you or someone explain your post #2: "I believe normalized torque is multiplied by optimum torque times .01 (e.g. optimum torque is a percent). This number is the amount of torque being modeled at any given cell. If you exceed this or go beneath this by more than 50 I believe you get an error and limp mode."

    I'm not messing with Normalized because so far that was a big fat fail for me, but I still get shutdowns now and then.
    So what torque compared to what is 50 too much? Do you mean the PID "Engine Torque" or some chart vs some other chart? Aside from Normalized, I can see Optimum Torque is also high risk so I'm not touching them again until I learn what they actually do, which I think will be never. Knowing what 50 off from what vs what will help.

    When I get a torque fault it's not a regular limp mode, it's basically a complete engine shutdown like a "PCM reset" in the pix so I assume this is what's happening? Anything in this chart to prevent it? The Error Sum Max or something in here?
    I don't even know what "22%/sec" means.

    Torque BS.jpg
    '16 E550 Coupe RWD - C207.373 / M278.922 / MED17.7.3 / 722.909

  2. #42
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    Good thread, guys. I am running thru some of this stuff on a CLA250. There are still a bunch of things that need better definitions (such as at least being able to log the maf), but Im currently trying to increase boost. The conventional "LNF" tuning isnt yeilding much results on this platform. Ive ran thru normalizer, optimum tq, torque to load, max tq settings, etc, even comparing many of the 45amg tables and I cant get the boost duty cycle to respond correctly. Setting the min duty cycle on the boost solenoid to a high setting and increasing TIP & overboost thresholds has helped some (havent got too crazy with them as of yet), but its not the proper way to handle it, i know. Ive requesring a WG corr table to be added as well as the MAF in the logger (trying to take a stab at fuel trims without being able to log the maf is like try to hit a flying bird with soap bubble...
    Trans is also being affected by raising some of the tq limits/targets, causing short shifts.
    Also, i may toss my tunernerd knock monitor on it while on my dyno and check the knock sensitivity settings soon and report back.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boost4Breakfast View Post
    Good thread, guys. I am running thru some of this stuff on a CLA250. There are still a bunch of things that need better definitions (such as at least being able to log the maf), but Im currently trying to increase boost. The conventional "LNF" tuning isnt yeilding much results on this platform. Ive ran thru normalizer, optimum tq, torque to load, max tq settings, etc, even comparing many of the 45amg tables and I cant get the boost duty cycle to respond correctly. Setting the min duty cycle on the boost solenoid to a high setting and increasing TIP & overboost thresholds has helped some (havent got too crazy with them as of yet), but its not the proper way to handle it, i know. Ive requesring a WG corr table to be added as well as the MAF in the logger (trying to take a stab at fuel trims without being able to log the maf is like try to hit a flying bird with soap bubble...
    Trans is also being affected by raising some of the tq limits/targets, causing short shifts.
    Also, i may toss my tunernerd knock monitor on it while on my dyno and check the knock sensitivity settings soon and report back.
    Welcome to thread.
    Yep! Would be nice to be able to log the maf, calculated by mercedes! I have my own calculator, but then i stump with the other problems..

    How do you tune your fuel trims? I do it like: edit inj pw multiplier. Make you own table to the hp scanner and log the STFT. you can then add that value to the table and it will be correct. Like: 5%STFT to inj pw multiplier table 1.00 -> 1.05. This is not the correct way to achieve this, but maybe whole mercedes tuning is kind of cheating to the win? This way you can be safe if you are too lean.

    Back to torque.. in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yHI6gqP94c they actually says that they edit normalized torque... i am so confused.

  4. #44
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    He said he re-scaled what it thinks is 100% available torque. So I'd say he changed Torque to Load from ~150 to 220. And that, Boost4Breakfast, is something you need to do. Not sure what yours is now but bumping it will increase boost. Then like he said in the vid, there are other bs limiters so increasing Torque to Load will likely only buy you a little bit until it hits a limiter, and there are many of them. "Maximum Desired Load" was a biggie for me and I had to raise the crap outta that one before it stopped limiting me. "Max Torque Driver Input" is another, which I increased a lot and widened the area under the curve if you look at the 2d view. "Exhaust Temp" charts had to be lowered and a bunch of misc things raised. My car has a mystery issue that is killing power, so I'm starting at about 60% power and having to raise the values way up just to get to stock levels. So with yours I suppose I suppose I'd raise things like 5-10%, not 50 to >100% like me.

    I too would love to know how to adjust LTFT because mine is always ~10% and I don't know why or how it's possible. Not sure what it matters but it's annoying that it's off.
    Anyone know what "TIP" stands for? I assume it's the brief moment when you change throttle position, and for fuel and spark you need the programming equivalent a carbs accelerator pump and old vacuum advance, but since I can't google it so I don't know if it entails more. Plus, what would direct injection need with that? Would it not simply feed the correct fuel and spark to the cyl regardless of throttle movement?

    I'm also still stuck on what clifftoo mentioned about torque of 50 off being too much because my ecu turns the boost off all the time and it's gettin on my nerves. If I knew where the torque PID reading gets its value from it would help because I know that is off, but I don't know why. Today I was cruising at 80 for miles while making zero torque, plus or minus ~20. And low load is when it kills boost or completely shuts the eng down, so I'm guessing it's really making ~50 but reading 0 is my issue? No clue how do it fix it.
    Aside from it reading low at part throttle, it reads really high a full throttle because I know I can't make >800ftlbs but it'll read that. It's probably half that, so it's all screwed up.

    Lastly; is the login timer here set to 60sec or what? Whenever I post I'm already logged out. Of surf a bit and try to open a picture same deal. Getting tired of logging in over and over.
    '16 E550 Coupe RWD - C207.373 / M278.922 / MED17.7.3 / 722.909

  5. #45
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    Check these out.
    811 ftlbs at 12lbs boost, and note the eng temp in upper right corner. Pretty sure my stat is sticky or something.

    The other is hovering ~ zero power at a steady 80 mph. A minute later I gave it a little gas and it opened the wastegates. Resetting that requires a restart.


    811.jpg

    2.jpg
    '16 E550 Coupe RWD - C207.373 / M278.922 / MED17.7.3 / 722.909

  6. #46
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    TIP (in reference to this ecu) is throttle inlet pressure or pressure seen prior to the throttle valve (hense why u never see it dip below atmospheric). The ecu will determine what map pressure and tip pressure is needed, and as tip pressure goes out of its desired range, the bov is opened to release pressure, even if youre still at WOT. If you put a raised "floor" on the wastegate duty cycle, the turbo can build too much TIP and cause faults (ecoboosts are very sensitive to this). If you retrofit a conventional vacuum-operated blow off valve, then you have to jack up the thresholds/limits and focus on what is controlling the throttle source.

    Having some background in LNF tuning (chevy cobalt ss with turbo), and doing more recently with the ecoboosts has related some to the merc platform.

    Fuel trims are a shot in the dark without having direct reference to what the ecu is using for reference, but if you make drastic changes to one cell of the maf, then searching thru the log for the "spike" it creates, you can take the long way around fuel trim tuning.... sucks, but works... sorta. (Cant have drastic throttle transitions in the areas you look at as tip-in (not the "T.I.P." referenced earlier) fueling will throw off your fueling some, usually in a 'spike'/jump/brief movement) In the end, make the maf curve a smooth transition when all done. If it ends up looking jagged, its because the maf correction table needs some work (we need to be able to log the maf!!!!!!)

    Ill have the CLA250 back in my shop soon to do more tweaking on it to see what we can make happen. Also I noticed the "race start" (launch control) rpm input seems to have no direct affect on actual launch rpm. Also we need to be able to log throttle source, torque source, spark source.
    Last edited by Boost4Breakfast; 04-28-2022 at 12:44 AM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by chevota View Post
    I too would love to know how to adjust LTFT because mine is always ~10% and I don't know why or how it's possible. Not sure what it matters but it's annoying that it's off.
    Anyone know what "TIP" stands for? I assume it's the brief moment when you change throttle position, and for fuel and spark you need the programming equivalent a carbs accelerator pump and old vacuum advance, but since I can't google it so I don't know if it entails more. Plus, what would direct injection need with that? Would it not simply feed the correct fuel and spark to the cyl regardless of throttle movement?
    This way i did it and hope it can help you. I can get it spot on with this.

    option 1
    I think, MB will only use that LTFT under ~2500rpm. After that, it will lock the LTFT value and adds STFT on that. So you can cruise a around of town and log STFT and LTFT. If the STFT showing +-2 and your LTFT shows +10 -> you can add +0,08 or +0,10 to inj pw multi around 0-2000rpm and 0-1,5ms. Test again, should be closer. You may have to remove some fuel from 2500rpm+, but test it.

    option 2
    You raise the slope about 8% and then fine tune with the option 1 +2500rpm

  8. #48
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    Thanks Boost4Breakfast. So now when people say it I guess I have to decypher if they mean TIP or tip-in. I think it's mostly the latter because I don't see how TIP matters.
    I don't get TIP errors btw, even if it's >5psi difference steady or spikes to >20.
    I don't have a blow off valve, and I don't see a need "if" the ecu would command boost correctly. Since it can't so I suppose I might have to get one. I just hate making changes that are permanent, especially any that are visible.

    I have a Race Start RPM available in the Editor as well, but no such function on the car. It's frustrating to tinker with something only to discover it doesn't actually do anything. Or when things do stuff they're not supposed to do. Or when a few values in a chart are way off so I wonder if the whole chart is fubar or just the cells that are wrong? Are they really wrong or is that just how HP interprets the data? Do I leave it or plug in a realistic #?

    I guess I'll play with the fuel trim just to see what happens, but still baffled as to how it could be 10% off. LT was 4.7 for much of the time today, no explanation for that other than that's about what Torque Pro gave me when I used that app, which goes back to questioning the data. Like today I was cruising at 84mph while the HP Scanner says I'm making negative torque. Wth, why? Or maybe I just tuned it so well it's now making free energy.
    Makeclick; I never noticed but yes, LTFT does tend to stop, or almost stop past 2500. And >2500 the STFT usually goes very negative, sometimes more than the LT is positive. So based on that I really just need to dial in my low rpm mix.

    Since my manual boost control doesn't work I guess I'll try Manual Control on Desired Load. I don't believe it'll work to control boost but I'll give it try out of curiosity. I have zero interest in pops or whatever you were missing. I don't like it and it attracts cops. That's one reason I like MB cars, cops tend to leave you alone.
    '16 E550 Coupe RWD - C207.373 / M278.922 / MED17.7.3 / 722.909

  9. #49
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    Hi all. So linked to my post; perhaps some of you on here could help with a process that works?

    https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...208#post686208

    With regards this thread; this is how med17 and in fact all Bosch torque based control systems work ( obviously simplified somewhat).

    You have a forward and reverse torque path. This then splits into an air and spark forward and reverse path. You also have a torque monitor running in the background.

    Pedal position generates a relative torque request. This request is scaled by normalised torque into an actual torque in Nm.

    The torque model then calculates the required load to generate the requested tq at the given rpm. Once we have a load request this is translated into an airharge request. This ends up as a set of cam & throttle position and boost request. We also get a coordinated spark request. All of the above is forward path.

    The pcm then goes off and delivers a throttle, cam, boost and spark. The exhaust lambda may go rich to protect components. The engine may be knock limited. The pcm then looks at the divered air, cams, spark, boost etc and calculates the actual current load. Actual load is then turned into an actual torque (this is the reverse path).

    It then looks at the difference between forward and reverse (requested and delivered) and determines if the difference is within an acceptable limit. This is part of the torque monitor function. If the error is too large you get limp and 61a/b.


    Optimal torque map is the torque to load calculation at lambda 1 and mbt spark timing. The spark and lambda efficiency values are used to calculate the actual torque taking into account the current engine operating conditions. Phew!

    So one significant issue is that we have probably 5% or less of the calibration tables actually available in HPT software!

  10. #50
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    This Optimum torque and Opt Monitoring are a mystery and a problem for me. How does this factor in? Say I change a value in one, what actually happens?

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by chevota View Post
    This Optimum torque and Opt Monitoring are a mystery and a problem for me. How does this factor in? Say I change a value in one, what actually happens?
    what I do is always set the Monitoring higher than the Optimum trq in the areas that I made changes in Optimum Trq
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  12. #52
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    outlaw; I was hoping you'd chime in
    My oem Optimum Torque and Opt Monitoring are ~74, and I have Opt Torque ~83 simply because the OE Tune I bought had them there.
    So I bumped Opt Monitoring to 83 to see what would happen but all it did was lower boost & power, which I wrote about here in post #6:
    https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...es-p061a-p061b

    So it appears to me that Opt Monitoring is just part of the math to calc power output? And I'd assume lowering the #'s in it would cause the inverse to happen and actual power would increase.
    I haven't tried it yet but seems logical. I also can't tell the difference when Opt Torque is 74 or 83. Boost and actual power is the same.
    Meanwhile I've been trying to prevent my constant loss of boost or complete shutdowns by tinkering with the #'s in the pix below. It "seems" to be working because I haven't lost my boost or shutdown since I did this about 10 days ago:
    error settings.jpg

    Then there's all the stuff that sub8 said, which is depressing because I'd need to get WinOLS to access it all. From what I read and saw on youtube, that program is far more complicated and confusing than HP Tuners. Plus, yet another $1000 I'll have to $pend chasing this problem. So I'm doing my best to squeeze as much as I can out of the car using HP. So far it's a hella lot better than I was, but the closer I get to peak power the more issues and side effects I run into. Like Torque to Load would shutdown ~230, so I've been stuck at 225 for a while, but will try again since I've been messing with the settings that trigger faults.
    Can't life be like The Matrix and in a few seconds I know everything there is to know about tuning? Someone hook me up with that program...
    '16 E550 Coupe RWD - C207.373 / M278.922 / MED17.7.3 / 722.909

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by chevota View Post
    So it appears to me that Opt Monitoring is just part of the math to calc power output? And I'd assume lowering the #'s in it would cause the inverse to happen and actual power would increase.
    I am working on a car that has some boost drop issues and maybe lowering these numbers would help to aid the issue, so I am going to try and answer you back

    Quote Originally Posted by chevota View Post
    Torque Error, Testing - Comparison, Testing - Min/Max never went on that road and changed them, I cant help you with this.

    Torque Calculation > Fault Enable Time = raise it to 65535 s.

    Diagnostic > Airflow > Overboost Time = I would revert it to stock you dont want that much of overboost time

    Diagnostic > Airflow > Max TIP Error = Wow! thats way too much for stock intakes and turbos lower the numbers to 20ish


    Quote Originally Posted by chevota View Post
    Then there's all the stuff that sub8 said, which is depressing because I'd need to get WinOLS to access it all. From what I read and saw on youtube, that program is far more complicated and confusing than HP Tuners. Plus, yet another $1000 I'll have to $pend chasing this problem.
    You can start using the demo version to understand the bigger picture before spending money to by the software.

    Dont push your car too hard with out the correct Mechanical mods dont just depend on tuning you could cause issues trying to reach the power you seek while the car is completely stock!
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  14. #54
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    Thanks for looking, and the advice outlaw.
    Makes sense on the Fault Enable. I thought it was how long it would hold a pending error code.
    As for these two;
    The Diagnostic > Airflow > Overboost Time - not sure how/why but sometimes I get a overboost code with the oem 1.5sec setting, so it's just to prevent a code.
    Diagnostic > Airflow > Max TIP Error - Same deal, I just don't want a code/CEL or to kill my boost.

    20psi is what I want my max to be, but since it can't control the wastegates quick enough it exceeds 20 before it can catch itself. Similar to when I started it would control boost to 12psi max but would spike to 17 now and then if I gassed it just right.
    I've been playing with the turbo settings and it's much better than it was, but no matter what it can't physically open or close the wastegates fast enough.

    I hear you on the parts, thanks. I just can't do a whole lot to it because I live in California. I did buy the Meth kit, but no time to install yet.
    '16 E550 Coupe RWD - C207.373 / M278.922 / MED17.7.3 / 722.909

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by chevota View Post
    Thanks for looking, and the advice outlaw.
    Makes sense on the Fault Enable. I thought it was how long it would hold a pending error code.
    As for these two;
    The Diagnostic > Airflow > Overboost Time - not sure how/why but sometimes I get a overboost code with the oem 1.5sec setting, so it's just to prevent a code.
    Diagnostic > Airflow > Max TIP Error - Same deal, I just don't want a code/CEL or to kill my boost.

    20psi is what I want my max to be, but since it can't control the wastegates quick enough it exceeds 20 before it can catch itself. Similar to when I started it would control boost to 12psi max but would spike to 17 now and then if I gassed it just right.
    I've been playing with the turbo settings and it's much better than it was, but no matter what it can't physically open or close the wastegates fast enough.

    I hear you on the parts, thanks. I just can't do a whole lot to it because I live in California. I did buy the Meth kit, but no time to install yet.
    The max thing I could achieve safely on M278 engines stock turbos is 18 psi but with mods which are intakes + downpipes.

    The max boost I pushed on stock M278 no mods is 15psi to be safe.

    comparing M278 turbos with M157 turbos they are way too small !
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  16. #56
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    I want 20, but I only get it for a moment, can't hold it there. Even in high gear where the rpms barley move, it'll climb up to 18-20, but right back down to 14-16. The lower the gear the crazier it is, then add throttle and traction control it's just stupid. Here's one from this am, 0-60 (27 May '22).hpl
    Despite traction control that's an exceptional run for me because normally traction control slows it down a lot more more. I do have brand new 265/35 18 Conti Extreme Contact Sport tires in back, so I'm sure that's why. With these tires and traction control off I just may break my 5 sec barrier. I tried just after that run, but a homeless guy crawled outta the bushes and right into the street. Even at 5am and no cars on an industrial side road I can't get a break.

    Globois550 posted a run on the error code thread from about 40 to 95mph and boost was rock solid. Very low psi, but solid like from a car that has pressure controlled wastegates. I can't recall seeing a run with an ecu controlled 550 or 63 showing boost, and certainly not solenoid duty cycle, so I still don't know what normal looks like.
    '16 E550 Coupe RWD - C207.373 / M278.922 / MED17.7.3 / 722.909

  17. #57
    So is anyone with a stock turbo M278 able to hold decent boost to 6k rpm?

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    I think im at 12, ill double check later

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    This is the question of the century I?m still waiting for someone to share that information. I?m definitely seeing more boost for a short period of time then it?s falls off to 10-12psi higher rpm

    Not sure if it?s something with the tune at this point or if the stock intakes have something to do with it

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Globois550 View Post
    This is the question of the century I?m still waiting for someone to share that information. I?m definitely seeing more boost for a short period of time then it?s falls off to 10-12psi higher rpm

    Not sure if it?s something with the tune at this point or if the stock intakes have something to do with it
    What does your wastegate duty cycle look like through the rpm range?