Generally, if you have your idle set and you change your ETC Area Scalar, do you need to tweak the idle? i have a NW 102 throttle body and the scalar is set to 6636. ive been reading up on the math formula and it looks as if this should be set to around 7148ish. i was thinking 7100. how much will this affect idle if any?
Rob
Last edited by LS ROB; 01-26-2022 at 07:47 PM.
If you raise the scalar, for the same calculated g/s braf it will open the throttle less. You may have to add some airflow.
i see. the car runs well as is. should i raise the scalar for the larger tb or just tune as it is? would raising the scalar and retuning braf be better for optimum performance or can you get the same performance from the lower scalar? does that make sense? i guess im trying to ask, which would be the most efficient way?
Smaller than actual scaler will make the throttle more responsive "quicker opening" and actually close slower. This can help with adaptive idle not being 100% dialed in... NEGATIVES - transients will need more tweaking as it's not "seeing" the whole picture of what air is coming into the engine. You'll probably have to lower braf to get the throttle to close kinda how you want it. Throttle may take off too "easily" with very little input changes - start getting into a safety territory issue if scaling is too much smaller - especially on wet roads.
Larger than actual scaler will make the throttle less responsive "slower opening - ie more pedal movement required for the same effect", but close a little quicker. This can make the throttle a little "smoother" for something like a cam for instance, but can require a lot of idle reworking...
If you change etc scaler to something other than what your already tuned for you will need to redo your MAF and VE - it will change your wot fueling and as stated transient fueling...
Three other directly related tables are under your torque model tab - they are airflow for high, low and mid altitudes - these will do the exact same things only you can more finely and correctly dial in your airflow model using these for near OE drivability even making 1000hp to the tires...
To put things really simply, if your scaler is only off that little and is slightly under - me personally I would leave it alone - I actually prefer even on stock setups to go about 500 to 800 under actual just for better coming to an idle control and for pedal responsiveness. If your making 1000hp then go actual or slightly over and dial in the airflow altitude tables.
2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80
~Greg Huggins~
Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC
I agree 100%.Originally Posted by GHuggins
wow! this is the info i need and was looking for GHuggins! thank you! i gave it a quick stab the other day and oh boy did it like it! i will just leave as is and go from there.
thanks Sevinn!
When adjusting the Tq model tables; is it required to change all three or just the LOW BAROMETRIC table if you are having low speed driving issues? Low = casual driving, Medium = part throttle, High = WOT? <---<< is that those work or not exactly?
They're barometric pressure adjuster tables - think of it this way - high altitude (air will be thinner and won't be as much coming into the motor at the same throttle percentages), so this calibrates the ecm for those changes. I always adjust all 3 tables the same so the changes will be applied to what the OE already had difference wise.
Honestly I'm pretty sure these like a few others are labeled wrong in the calibration as it had low barometric pressure (high altitude) flowing more air - pretty sure they should be the opposite, but just make the same adjustments to all and you should be OK. Perhaps they should be labeled altitude instead of baro as then they would be correct.
2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80
~Greg Huggins~
Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC
Ahhh.. ok. Thanks for clearing that up. I have highlighted the parameter on the attached picture that I am using. Should that parameter be ok or is there a better one to use?
tq model.jpg
I've never used a math per say for it before. Just looking at your numbers they look like they're going backwards though. I know Nathan used something - I think it was actually discussed in the torque model thread - to back calculate and make corrections to this table or perhaps it was in one of his threads discussing these tables - yes - I believe that was it (hjturbo) He mentioned something about logging and looking for airflow differences and then applying those differences...
2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80
~Greg Huggins~
Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC
Finally found it - I was way off on the name title though
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...rea-conversion
2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80
~Greg Huggins~
Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC
Do you think it could be that my BRAF is too high in some areas? I've been bringing it down slowly and it seems to be helping. It's gotten alot smoother. This all seems to fall in line with my overspeed/underspeed pulling timing as I have been trying to figure out for some time now.
It happensFinally found it - I was way off on the name title though
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...rea-conversion
I'll give that a read and see what i can find. Thank you!!
Your ecm is going in and out of idle and I honestly don't know why as it shouldn't be. Lowering the BRAF will work around this by making you open the throttle more when your cruising - same thing as raising your etc scaler or raising the baro numbers should do - by keeping the throttle more open your keeping it out of idle mode. You might want to try the correct etc scaler and raise the baro numbers both. I know to make a blower car run OEish, I have to do that to them.
2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80
~Greg Huggins~
Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC
I'm not 100% sure with the NW102, but with the NW103 you keep the scalar with the stock values. I actually talked to Nick Williams about this when i put on the 103 on my ctsv.
I was thinking through your logic, I'm not sure how the MAF and VVE would need to be dialed in by a scalar change. When you tune VVE, it is map and rpm dependent and MAF is just frequency. How fast the throttle moves per accelerator pedal position should not change the fueling requirements at certain load points in the VVE or maf frequencies. ETCTP at 100% throttle should be 100% throttle, so I'm unsure of why WOT fueling would need to be adjusted for the scalar change.
I do agree that transients would need work if you are entering PE sooner/quicker.
Because you're lying to the ecm and it's calculating a different airmass at every given throttle point. MAF shouldn't need cleaning up much, but the VVE most definitely will.
2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80
~Greg Huggins~
Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC
Nick tried to set the 103's up to not need tuning - not sure exactly how he accomplished that as I've not taken any apart, but you should use stock values with them. The 102 however is the older style and requires tuning - a whole lot depending on the build sometimes....
2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80
~Greg Huggins~
Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC
I understand that a lower scalar would create higher cylinder airmass at a lower throttle position, but the airmass table and VVE tables do not reference throttle. VVE is MAP-based, so whether you use 30% throttle or 50% throttle to achieve 75 KPA, I'm not sure how that would affect VVE. Same with MAF, 6500htz is 6,500 htz regardless of commanded AFR or ETCTP.
Not trying to be confrontational, just trying to understand what you are saying.
Reply With Quote