gen 4 ETC Scalar

[GHuggins]

I just know it always needs readjusting. The same way if you change manifold volume - this always requires rescaling the VE tables too. The MAF won't require much touch up and could be argued that it's just normal skewing, but the VE table seems to always be changed.

It's kinda like putting an intake manifold or heads on something still using the stock intake tube and filter housing - 6500hz should still flow the same air right and thus deliver the same "fuel" right? That's just it though - it doesn't - you usually have to add fuel or take away if you went backwards on the mods and thus increase or reduce - again depending on if you gained or not - the g/s reading. I agree with you. In a perfect world it should be the same no matter what, but I think the OE gets airflow measurements with everything assembled to come up with the original scaling on purpose.

The MAF scaling part was more on the gen3's for whatever reason - typically they leaned out or went pig rich, but small number changes made big number changes for throttle sizing, so possibly played into it there?

Don't know the specifics - just know that's what I've had to do with those changes.

I mean it's kind of like the transients part - all transients are calculated from map and temperature inputs and triggered via rpm changes - if it affects these, it should also effect the base models - right?

[sgod1100]

Nick tried to set the 103's up to not need tuning - not sure exactly how he accomplished that as I've not taken any apart, but you should use stock values with them. The 102 however is the older style and requires tuning - a whole lot depending on the build sometimes....

Yeah, all I needed to do was increase the min airflow a little bit at lower rpm because the rpms were dipping a little too much while coming down.

[Alex14SS]

im on MAF only tune so im not sure what to do with the VE since I don't use it...

[Alvin]

Nick tried to set the 103's up to not need tuning - not sure exactly how he accomplished that as I've not taken any apart, but you should use stock values with them. The 102 however is the older style and requires tuning - a whole lot depending on the build sometimes....

The throat has been profiled to flow near stock until a good ways up in throttle %

Great product. He's local to us.

[Cringer]

im on MAF only tune so im not sure what to do with the VE since I don't use it...

There is no way to run on MAF only. Your Gen4 car is still referencing VVE.

[GHuggins]

The throat has been profiled to flow near stock until a good ways up in throttle %

Great product. He's local to us.

So that's it. That in theory could also maintain low end torque on NA setups whilst still gaining up top. Nick's a great guy. I did some minor - very minor - R&D help for him about 7 yr's ago when he was having problems with the 102's. Good to know on the 103's - they should come with a warning to not alter it in the tune if they don't though as I know a lot of people had problems with them originally.

[sgod1100]

So that's it. That in theory could also maintain low end torque on NA setups whilst still gaining up top. Nick's a great guy. I did some minor - very minor - R&D help for him about 7 yr's ago when he was having problems with the 102's. Good to know on the 103's - they should come with a warning to not alter alter in the tune if they don't though as I know a lot of people had problems with them originally.

Yeah, I altered my scalar initially and good lord did my car feel like it gained 1000 lbs...lol. Then I ended up emailing him about it and told me to keep it stock. I love the quick fixes like that..lol

[Sub8]

I just know it always needs readjusting. The same way if you change manifold volume - this always requires rescaling the VE tables too. The MAF won't require much touch up and could be argued that it's just normal skewing, but the VE table seems to always be changed.

It's kinda like putting an intake manifold or heads on something still using the stock intake tube and filter housing - 6500hz should still flow the same air right and thus deliver the same "fuel" right? That's just it though - it doesn't - you usually have to add fuel or take away if you went backwards on the mods and thus increase or reduce - again depending on if you gained or not - the g/s reading. I agree with you. In a perfect world it should be the same no matter what, but I think the OE gets airflow measurements with everything assembled to come up with the original scaling on purpose.

The MAF scaling part was more on the gen3's for whatever reason - typically they leaned out or went pig rich, but small number changes made big number changes for throttle sizing, so possibly played into it there?

Don't know the specifics - just know that's what I've had to do with those changes.

I mean it's kind of like the transients part - all transients are calculated from map and temperature inputs and triggered via rpm changes - if it affects these, it should also effect the base models - right?

These hardware changes affect the real volumetric efficiency. That's why the VVE tables need to be dialled in. Similar for the MAF, even though it's measuring actual airflow, the system model still needs to estimate cylinder trapped charge for fuelling calculations.

I have the nw103 and didn't buy the no tuning required statements. So running with the calc difference in scaler.....

[GHuggins]

These hardware changes affect the real volumetric efficiency. That's why the VVE tables need to be dialled in. Similar for the MAF, even though it's measuring actual airflow, the system model still needs to estimate cylinder trapped charge for fuelling calculations.

I have the nw103 and didn't buy the no tuning required statements. So running with the calc difference in scaler.....

That's just it though - no hardware getting changed. Changing the number is what requires the tuning in what I was talking about. AND to clear that up - if you change hardware, I recommend tuning in for it - otherwise not optimized....

[Alex14SS]

There is no way to run on MAF only. Your Gen4 car is still referencing VVE.

Thanks for the reply, I went & got it Dyno & from what I can see VVE is totally disabled. I just a new throttle body 102mm but it's holding open to much so it's gaining speed when I let go obviously since it's open way wider than the stock throttle body. I'm not sure how to have its open less.

[GHuggins]

Thanks for the reply, I went & got it Dyno & from what I can see VVE is totally disabled. I just a new throttle body 102mm but it's holding open to much so it's gaining speed when I let go obviously since it's open way wider than the stock throttle body. I'm not sure how to have its open less.

You have to understand the in's and out's of how the ECM operates. VVE - even though it's setup to be 100% MAF - is still used for anything with over a 50ish rpm change, so any throttle stabs - it's used for transient fueling / going into decel - used for decel torque, throttle and fueling calcs / if you're running a cam that has a "lope" - it'll come into play at idle simply because of the rpm change - big rpm jumps - transients in general will come into play too

As for your over aggressive throttle - etc scaler needs to be set right and then you have the baro tables that come into play with the extra airflow. You also have Driver Demand tables, but the baro tables once adjusted right will take care of all of it. This is just one of the reasons "dyno tunes" are only as good as the tuner doing them...... Of course that holds true for all tunes

[Alex14SS]

You have to understand the in's and out's of how the ECM operates. VVE - even though it's setup to be 100% MAF - is still used for anything with over a 50ish rpm change, so any throttle stabs - it's used for transient fueling / going into decel - used for decel torque, throttle and fueling calcs / if you're running a cam that has a "lope" - it'll come into play at idle simply because of the rpm change - big rpm jumps - transients in general will come into play too

As for your over aggressive throttle - etc scaler needs to be set right and then you have the baro tables that come into play with the extra airflow. You also have Driver Demand tables, but the baro tables once adjusted right will take care of all of it. This is just one of the reasons "dyno tunes" are only as good as the tuner doing them...... Of course that holds true for all tunes

wow, thanks for the info; ill try to dial in the VVE & see what happens; I already dialed in the MAF as much as possible. here's what my tune looks like so far:Throttle body.hpt

[castorjames]

who can share a picture of those tables? cant find em.

Three other directly related tables are under your torque model tab - they are airflow for high, low and mid altitudes - these will do the exact same things only you can more finely and correctly dial in your airflow model using these for near OE drivability even making 1000hp to the tires...

[LS ROB]

they're in the "Torque Model" tab.

[GHuggins]

You honestly may have to request they get added to your calibration as they weren't put into all of them. The tables are ---

[ECM] 12942 - Requested Airflow High Barometric: Grams per cylinder of requested airflow during high barometric pressure, used for engine torque model calculations.

[ECM] 12941 - Requested Airflow Medium Barometric: Grams per cylinder of requested airflow during medium barometric pressure, used for engine torque model calculations.

[ECM] 12940 - Requested Airflow Low Barometric: Grams per cylinder of requested airflow during low barometric pressure, used for engine torque model calculations.

[LS ROB]

I was wondering if someone had time to check my math and or give recommendations on what Scalar number I should try with my setup? The setup: cam is a stage 2 ls7 .635/.635", 234/246, 115lsa +3, msd intake, stock injectors, long tube headers, NW102 dbw, ls7 heads milled .020. I have scalar adjusted to 8171 and it does seem to tame the car some but I would like for scalar to be "correct," so that number will probably change. My math is as follows for the throttle body area: pi*51*51 = 8171.28 The math for the area of the shaft: (I have not measured the shaft thickness as I do not have a way to do so, but have seen posts where it is an assumed 10mm?) <---<< If this is accurate, my math: 10*102 = 1020. Therefore, 8171.28-1020 =7151.28 or 7151.

Thanks

[Alex14SS]

Tried to tune VE & it’s still gaining speed when letting go of the pedal. Maybe I should add more to the scaler?

[LS ROB]

at what rpm? what are your mods and do you have a log?

[GHuggins]

Tried to tune VE & it’s still gaining speed when letting go of the pedal. Maybe I should add more to the scaler?

Most likely a throttle setting has it held open - percent brake or min settings. Can also be your min air too high for those rpm areas.

[Alvin]

Thanks for the reply, I went & got it Dyno & from what I can see VVE is totally disabled. I just a new throttle body 102mm but it's holding open to much so it's gaining speed when I let go obviously since it's open way wider than the stock throttle body. I'm not sure how to have its open less.

Tried to tune VE & it’s still gaining speed when letting go of the pedal. Maybe I should add more to the scaler?

If all you did is change the throttle body and it's running away I'd bump the ETC scalar up until it's like it was.