Lockpin is full cam advance and when there is 0% PWM signal (no oil pressure going to phaser) as explained on page 172 of the FCA workbook. Technically it is explained on page 178 but that section talks about the 3.6 engine whereas page 172-175 is the operation of the V8 VVT or VCT as the workbook states.
https://www.challengertalk.com/attac...ag-pdf.939595/
Actually Hemituna explains lock pin in the link that I titled...what is lock pin.
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...l=1#post619793
That really confused me again. I will read these in the evening.
If software says lockpin 120? , why full advance is 125?....maybe someone has truant school ??? I've did it for sure ;-)
And yes, I'm working constantly on the soft of my cars - often by try and error - and share it gladly.
It has to be perfect for my own taste.
At this time I have worked on the can and spark tables and got a mix of 5.7 and 6.4 tables in spark.
So I have to log for knock next while driving.
When Im completley finished with logging on the road in closed loop and every thing works fine, then I?m going to work on open loop.
Fortunaly we got some googd roads for that in Germany and I?m not in a hurry.
aufspielen-mit_cam_spark.hpt
So I think you're right, per this video the lock pin is not full advance on the exhaust but close to it. At lock pin there is no valve overlap. For full exhaust advance the cam needs further assistance to reach it.
https://youtu.be/dl__hrNkckI?t=168
Sounds like lock pin is used for start-up when there is low oil pressure and once released goes to full advance. But the vid says it is engaged at other specific operations...maybe MDS activation?
https://youtu.be/dl__hrNkckI?t=136
The FCA workbook does not help clearing things up but what the vid says does make sense with the way the stock tables are setup.
So lock pin is a 120 degrees on a 5.7 with max cam advance of 130 degrees as used by normal vvt table. Although when logging I see ~125 degrees. Thanks bud for making me look at this again!
Hmm, now I wonder if this could explain the slight vvt oscillations at cold start up I posted about a while ago?
Last edited by Homer; 02-24-2022 at 06:12 PM.
You guys are making this out to be more complicated than it is. On your 5.7 call for 130 degrees on all exhaust table all rpms. Log and see how high you actually get. This will be your max advance. I bet you stay around the 125 range maybe kiss 126 every once in a while. This is max advance. On a 392 it will be 134/ 135 ish. Just set the lockpin tables the same as the regular tables. Don't get caught up on figuring out the actual advance from the LSA. Just focus on the exhaust numbers and know that they move the cam. The 392 cam has a 106 -109 intake centerline. For our example lets say it's 109. That means the intake valve is at max lift at 109 degrees rotation. (I don't know the exact number you would have to degree you cam for that but it's close to this.) If I want to retard my intake 6 degrees from 109max advance to 115 at 3000 rpms just plug in 119 at 3000 rpms on the exhaust table. 125 - 6 = 119 is the same as 109 + 6 =115 on the intake. With this type of single cam VVT the only thing that matters is where the intake lobe is in relation to RPM. The only catch is to manipulate this you have to do it on the exhaust table.
Last edited by Party340; 02-24-2022 at 07:15 PM.
I am not worried about the actual degrees but more interested in how the lock pin actually functions. It is technically not full advance but just shy of it. Saying it is full advance is not technically correct.Originally Posted by Party340
I think I'll understand the most things.
The essential question is, by swapping from 5.7 to 6.4 .
1)...is the VVT table using the lock-in as reference?
2)....is the VVT table using the max advance value as reference?
by 1) I copy the table over and have the 5.7 max limitation (125 instead of 135 advancing)
by 2) I copy the table over and subtract 10? from each number.
This would be the helpfullest information without making it too complex and help all buddy to do to the right way.
As far as I know 5.7 and 6.4 have same lock-pin setting and use the same phaser but as for the offset between the two I have been using 9 degrees.
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...l=1#post587987
I understand. No idea what lock pin is after reading all of this. I have a 2009 and it does not have a lock pin setting. Maybe its a fail safe for timing/ fueling in case of some sort of mechanical or other failure to meet emissions?
It is actual explained in the vid but you are correct it is a "safe" position.
https://youtu.be/dl__hrNkckI?t=136
So I tried it with 10? sub.
If it isn't the right position I will loose power.
.. try and error....
Unfortunaly I don't have make photos to compare the both, did anyone have ?
I will report.
Question. I have looked at your tune and compared it to mine in which I had copied the 6.4 exhaust tables minus the 10 in all of them. You got a bit different numbers on yours. Why? I actually tried your numbers on my car which was an improvement over the stock numbers but is it better than just copying the 6.4's minus the 10?
Also I believe u mentioned that your car was pulling a lot of fuel which mine is as well. What did you do to fix this issue?
Last edited by AlvinB; 02-26-2022 at 07:48 AM.
Which brings us back to FCA workbook which does not jive with the stock tune either (lock pin is just shy of full advance). I think the vid gets most of it right though. So now that you pointed out the discrepancy what is your take?
The fuel problem on my car was a hardware problem, now it works well. max 5% fuel trims.
I will take a look at the tune tomorrow...
I research in the ICL , wouldn't that be the real number for comparison?
For example 108 ICL with 115 LSA vs xxx ICL with 120 LSA?
https://mgispeedware.com/camshaft-calculator/
I play around with and its getting clearer,
The ICL of both cams 103 for 5.7 / 108 for 6.4 showing full advance (12?) when installed (little difference is probably by sensor - 135 shown/132 calc), so they get Ex 125 / 132 .
Both cams can only retard - not knowing exactly, I think about 42? till Ex 83 / 93 for cruising are reached.
So the 5.7 PCM says 125 advance is max for the 5.7 cam its even full advance for 6.4 cam.
Where we have to go from here?
If I want the same ECL for max open exhaust valve at the self timing, I have to retard the 6.4 cam by 7?
But at this time I will get an ICL (max open intake valve) of 115? while the 5.7 would have 103?
So I can try to set it around the middle of the 5.7 but I never know what is best, till I will Dino it !
And we know, Tuners wants to make money and do not share their experience.
So we have to do try and error .
I think its an important thing to look at intake valve closing - for example at 5700 RPM the 6.4 is setting around 20? later intake closing than the 5.7.
Maybe the Ignition timing gets important at a very late intake closing.
Let play around and find out....use the calc I postet and use the numbers
And here are the numbers..yes grandma plays it
IMG_9022.jpgIMG_9023.jpg
Last edited by f.creek-ranch; 02-28-2022 at 05:34 AM.
Okay car is running way better now with the vvt tunes and some other adjustments. Problem is car is still pulling a lot of fuel. About -18%. I have attached my data logs and tune if anybody has an idea of what it could be please help me out. I have been gettin a p0113 code for the IAT sensor. I cleaned it and its pulling a bit less fuel on idle but its still pulling a lot. not sure if IAT sensor is going bad or is anything with my tune. I would like to make sure before going and replacing it. Notice I got some power enrichment tunes in it but I even data logged it without them and is still pulling.
Im missing channels like pressure ratio and fuel mass cyl1 . even the o2 channels are not here .
But this is essential for diagnostic.
Maybe you have to dial in injectors again, but first lower your enrichement rate...thats too high. Double the stock, thats enough.
Max demanded throttle can give issues if you set it all too max. lower the lower values to prevent too much air from idle conditions.
I didnt find the time to test my tune.
What is better now? response or powerband?
Alright I?ll for sure try that out. Im also replacing the IAT sensor just in case. When i put your vvt settings the car just felt much smothered. Like the 0 to 60 feels better. Not sure how to explain it. It just feels like a better car. That plus all the other stuff I tuned makes the car just feel that it got power at any rpm. I would like to get a little into trans tuning after I dial in my fuel issues.
Not sure what's going with your IAT. It looked like it was reading temp in your log. I see that you have NN enabled. One way to dial in your fueling would be to disable NN and tune with the VE tables. Or you could log injector pulse time and tweak the curve. I would also log desired cam timing and actual cam timing. See if your cam is matching setpoint. I have a comp cam that had a difficult time hitting setpoint when going from part throttle to wide open throttle. So I put all of my part throttle settings at 125 full advance so the cam does not have to move very far when I go WOT.
I see what you guys mean here when using the 6.4 cam in a 5.7 where you subtract 10, however what if you are doing an engine swap to a 6.4 but are still using the 5.7 ecu?
Now having a 6.4 along with the stock 6.4 cam, do you simply use the vvt tune settings from a 6.4 tune of the same year and input that data into the 5.7 tune without any subtraction?
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