Speed density gen3 roush

[DCLTLLC14]

I am currently doing the the speed density on this 20 gt roush map only. The file is not completely off fuel wise. Max percent stft wise is + - 4 to 6%. Some spots I was seeing 9, 12, and 14% but I don't know is I trust it. I am locked in map point 0. For now until I get a handle on this issue.
I've read and read all the speed density stuff on here. X and y being rpm and calculated manifold absolute pressure (inhg) with it populating absolute load sae. Not great results. Once it calculates coefficients it messes it up more. For example So if I put in a certain cell that was .245 to .212, once I hit coefficients it brings it back up to say, .228 and also makes corrections to other cells which ends up throwing my data way off. Now I'm not tossing 50 cell corrections in it at a time. I pretty much do all my normal cruising stuff and hit as much as I can get, then make adjustments and so fourth. If I make corrections near my idle area and hit coefficients, it changes my idle load sometimes and then I got to go back to my idle area and correct it again. Going in circles maily trying to work off the airload. So I was thinking and I do gm stuff so I applied what I know with gm ve tuning and started making corrections according to fuel trim percentage. It works better then calculating load for some reason from what I'm seeing here. Still getting a little run around and it's getting ridiculous at this point. There's a map sensor hooked up so me calculating actual load should have worked. When i use the stft the map area im calculating data in is very accurate according to the change i see in log. Its mainlythis dam calculating coefficients messing up my stuff. I've read a post #murfie replied in saying he was running into this similar issue and made a histo calculating map based off airload and rpm as the x and y. Said it was more accurate. I tried it but I honestly don't know what to do with the data after I populate it that way.
Is there a table I need to zero or lesson correction on like - ve CORRECTION vs. ACT vs. ECT. or something. There's got to be something multiplying or some math in the file that's working against me. When I do gm using fuel trim or my wideband I have no issues. Thank you for your time.

[mstang_man]

I am currently doing the the speed density on this 20 gt roush map only. The file is not completely off fuel wise. Max percent stft wise is + - 4 to 6%. Some spots I was seeing 9, 12, and 14% but I don't know is I trust it. I am locked in map point 0. For now until I get a handle on this issue.
I've read and read all the speed density stuff on here. X and y being rpm and calculated manifold absolute pressure (inhg) with it populating absolute load sae. Not great results. Once it calculates coefficients it messes it up more. For example So if I put in a certain cell that was .245 to .212, once I hit coefficients it brings it back up to say, .228 and also makes corrections to other cells which ends up throwing my data way off. Now I'm not tossing 50 cell corrections in it at a time. I pretty much do all my normal cruising stuff and hit as much as I can get, then make adjustments and so fourth. If I make corrections near my idle area and hit coefficients, it changes my idle load sometimes and then I got to go back to my idle area and correct it again. Going in circles maily trying to work off the airload. So I was thinking and I do gm stuff so I applied what I know with gm ve tuning and started making corrections according to fuel trim percentage. It works better then calculating load for some reason from what I'm seeing here. Still getting a little run around and it's getting ridiculous at this point. There's a map sensor hooked up so me calculating actual load should have worked. When i use the stft the map area im calculating data in is very accurate according to the change i see in log. Its mainlythis dam calculating coefficients messing up my stuff. I've read a post #murfie replied in saying he was running into this similar issue and made a histo calculating map based off airload and rpm as the x and y. Said it was more accurate. I tried it but I honestly don't know what to do with the data after I populate it that way.
Is there a table I need to zero or lesson correction on like - ve CORRECTION vs. ACT vs. ECT. or something. There's got to be something multiplying or some math in the file that's working against me. When I do gm using fuel trim or my wideband I have no issues. Thank you for your time.

What is your calibration? MAP BASED SPEED DENSITY Which WEIGHTING FACTORS are you using? So you set all weighting factors to (0) except map point 0, dis you zero out your closed bias bank 1/2 and Closed loop forward feed bias Bank 1/2? Are you Data logging RPM, Air Manifold Absolute Pressure, Barometric Pressure, Load at WOT & Short term Fuel Trim Bank 1. IF Blow thru enabled Air Exhaust Back Pressure.

[DCLTLLC14]

What is your calibration? MAP BASED SPEED DENSITY Which WEIGHTING FACTORS are you using? So you set all weighting factors to (0) except map point 0, dis you zero out your closed bias bank 1/2 and Closed loop forward feed bias Bank 1/2? Are you Data logging RPM, Air Manifold Absolute Pressure, Barometric Pressure, Load at WOT & Short term Fuel Trim Bank 1. IF Blow thru enabled Air Exhaust Back Pressure.

I can pm you my file. Yea im logging all that. Blow through is enable. As of now at this very second I am using stft with as my rpm column axis and calculated map as my row axis.
I did not touch the closed loop bias stuff. I guess I will do that now??
This file is locked in map point 1 now.

[mstang_man]

I can pm you my file. Yea im logging all that. Blow through is enable. As of now at this very second I am using stft with as my rpm column axis and calculated map as my row axis.
I did not touch the closed loop bias stuff. I guess I will do that now??JP V4 maf comp disabled trans 2 map 0 locked.hpt
This file is locked in map point 1 now.

did you turn adaptive learning off? I am having issues to this uploaded file..
can you send me your DATALOG File.

[DCLTLLC14]

you have to connect your mpv12 to the lap top for it to come up. I dont know why. its not locked

[DCLTLLC14]

if you are referring to Maf adaption table# 2005, then yes its off.

[DCLTLLC14]

the last log i just sent you was with bank 1 and 2 bias tables zeroed out. I can not find Closed loop forward feed bias Bank 1/2

[mstang_man]

the last log i just sent you was with bank 1 and 2 bias tables zeroed out. I can not find Closed loop forward feed bias Bank 1/2

I assume you are SC (Super Charged) ?

[DCLTLLC14]

yes. roush super charged with a bap and id1050. pushing around 12 psi-ish.

[RobCat030]

In my experience, disabling mapped points in the index doesn't actually stop the cams from moving. I think it just prevents the use of tables associated with that angle pair. I would look at the cam angles directly to double check.

Zeroing out the distance tables works for me when I want to "lock" the cams. The considerations I have about doing it this way are 1) it's super time consuming, 2) you're tuning many areas of the calibration that will never be touched by a long shot 3) cam angles can affect the effective compression ratio, I'm not certain if all cam angle pairs are 100% safe at all boost levels and RPMs (that's 100% conjecture though).

[engineermike]

Robcat is correct. Disabling a point doesn’t prevent it from sending them cams there. Really hpt should distinguish between commanded and utilized mapped points, like desired vs actual. The whipple cal only commands disabled points so it’s always doing a weighted average of all mapped points. I hate that so I fixed mine to do it more traditionally.

[DCLTLLC14]

Thats weird that it would command disabled maps. Really weird how that is even possible. I want to give him back this car safe. To be honest from my data logs. My stft are not far away. Alot of spots I have 0 to 3% which is what we want ideally/perfecto👌. Some weird random spots have 12% 8% but if I keep the load in that area and rpm changes you will actually get them to drop a couple percent to like like down to 6 to 4%. I think those random cells that spike are the in-between areas that the calculator is not compensating for very well. I'm assuming.... my wot is -4% to 3%, but I might leave that alone because it has a nice cushion with .78 Lambda. I usually will throw 2% up top anyway once my tables are 0% to -1%
I also noticed by adjusting column by column axis. Seems to adjust much better then making adjustments to cells next to each other. Looking at my 3d graph it's not too bumpy. Acceptable. Im anal so its kinda pissing me off. I'd love to smooth it but I'm afraid of screwing my data. I guess I'll try and smooth it and load it in. If it screw my fuel trims up I'll just exit the file without saving. What's your guys take on smoothing this data. With locking the cams at 0 angle, once I unlock them I'm going to have to make adjustments anyway I'm assuming. More work. More headache. I don't know what else I can possibly do besides what I'm doing now. Very frustrating.

[RobCat030]

Mapped points aren't telling the cams what to do, they're explaining what the cams are doing. There's infinite variability, so this is how it gets reduced into a tangible model.

You're correct about the vertical dependency of the calculator. It's calculating a series of regressions for each RPM point on the axis. So in other words, each RPM (1000, 2000, etc) gets its own y=ax^2 + bx +c. Y being MAP and X being cylinder airmass, which the calculator estimates to load. The horizontal relationship is somewhat meaningless in terms of the calculation in the sense that you're interpolating between two separate equations.

For me, the calculator wasn't particularly useful until I really understood how it works (both Ford's SD system and how the calculator is generating its values). The critical piece of information is that it's operating on the least-squares principle. In practice you're going to have data that falls outside the curve, if you get obsessive with it, you will chase your tail endlessly. 5% is a perfectly acceptable margin of error, and probably better than what many tuners here would send out of their shops.

Yes, after unlocking the cams you would ideally move through each angle pair and calculate each. Most people leave cylair anticipation disabled and don't touch SD, mainly to avoid the headache you're currently facing. Smoothing is somewhat counteractive to a least-squares approach, but so is using histograms with averaged data (footnote murfie, lol). Unfortunately to do it right there just isn't really a shortcut. You can monitor the active mapped points and only focus on recalculating the areas that are used, that's about it (ie. don't worry about MP0 at 7krpm and peak load if its not used there typically).

If you can attach a log it might help.

[mstang_man]

He is not locking the Cams in any position, he is singling out a single map point so it not switching between map points in the HDFX weighting factors. the speed density calculator is in lb^2. In theory this is really meant for WOT and not partial throttle pulls. I assuming he is doing the select map points (MP) defaulted by the calibration which leaves any MP that are (0) is not used and if he continues to tune HDFX he should focus on the the ones that are enabled(1) one at a time. which requires disabling all map point but the one MP he is trying to tune which he started with MP 1.

[DCLTLLC14]

He is not locking the Cams in any position, he is singling out a single map point so it not switching between map points in the HDFX weighting factors. the speed density calculator is in lb^2. In theory this is really meant for WOT and not partial throttle pulls. I assuming he is doing the select map points (MP) defaulted by the calibration which leaves any MP that are (0) is not used and if he continues to tune HDFX he should focus on the the ones that are enabled(1) one at a time. which requires disabling all map point but the one MP he is trying to tune which he started with MP 1.

Yep! thats exactly what im doing!

[DCLTLLC14]

Mapped points aren't telling the cams what to do, they're explaining what the cams are doing. There's infinite variability, so this is how it gets reduced into a tangible model.

You're correct about the vertical dependency of the calculator. It's calculating a series of regressions for each RPM point on the axis. So in other words, each RPM (1000, 2000, etc) gets its own y=ax^2 + bx +c. Y being MAP and X being cylinder airmass, which the calculator estimates to load. The horizontal relationship is somewhat meaningless in terms of the calculation in the sense that you're interpolating between two separate equations.

For me, the calculator wasn't particularly useful until I really understood how it works (both Ford's SD system and how the calculator is generating its values). The critical piece of information is that it's operating on the least-squares principle. In practice you're going to have data that falls outside the curve, if you get obsessive with it, you will chase your tail endlessly. 5% is a perfectly acceptable margin of error, and probably better than what many tuners here would send out of their shops.

Yes, after unlocking the cams you would ideally move through each angle pair and calculate each. Most people leave cylair anticipation disabled and don't touch SD, mainly to avoid the headache you're currently facing. Smoothing is somewhat counteractive to a least-squares approach, but so is using histograms with averaged data (footnote murfie, lol). Unfortunately to do it right there just isn't really a shortcut. You can monitor the active mapped points and only focus on recalculating the areas that are used, that's about it (ie. don't worry about MP0 at 7krpm and peak load if its not used there typically).

If you can attach a log it might help.

What will cylair anticipation exactly do being disabled beacause i actually have it disabled....?
Heres my last log. And i know i have alot of histos lol. The bottom one is the one im using for sd stft P.S., I get saucy with this one lol
jp L4 sd map1 fun.hpl

[RobCat030]

I have to strongly disagree on a couple of things here.

He is not locking the Cams in any position, he is singling out a single map point so it not switching between map points in the HDFX weighting factors

The mapped points relate to the cam angle pairs. So the SD data for MP0 is angles 0,0. If you're tuning SD for MP0 but the cams are moving, you aren't getting accurate data for that cam angle pair. Might as well just throw the same data into every MP at that point, which, sure. But that's not how the calibration is set up.

the speed density calculator is in lb^2

The Ford regression data is in cylinder air mass (lb). The SD calculator is showing MAP vs RPM with VE (load) populating the cell.

In theory this is really meant for WOT and not partial throttle pulls

No it isn't. It's for throttle calculation and the desired air mass logic. At WOT the "Pedal Pos WOT Start/End" is used to force the throttle completely open, and you can set max MAP well above your actual boost level to prevent load/fuel from being clipped. This is why many people (ie. Roush) don't even touch speed density.

OP, cylinder anticipation is one of the ways that your MAF value is manipulated by the speed density model. The goal is to anticipate what happens to the air after it hits your MAF sensor and how it will participate in combustion (ie. it will take time to actually reach the cylinder, some of it might blow through the valves, some of it might not get trapped in the combustion chamber, etc.). Ideally, it helps the fuel model. If the SD is wrong, it can cause your airflow to be clipped or averaged downward. Usually once SD is corrected, it can be reenabled. I'll run a regression on that log just to see, takes a minute.

Edit: your MAF reading seems to be stuck at .36 lbs/min. I would get an accurate, non SAE reading to get an accurate regression

[mstang_man]

Here is quick break down.
MAF Temp Compensation vs. Airflow vs. IAT: This table is used to compensate the MAF for temperature.
Load with Failed MAF vs. RPM vs. TPS: This table is used to determine the load when the MAF is failed with IMRC closed.
Load with Failed MAF (IMRC Open) vs. RPM vs. TPS: This table is used to determine the load when the MAF is failed with IMRC open.
MAF Backflow Entry TPS vs. RPM: This value is used to determine the MAF failure mode if air backflow occurs at higher throttle positions.
MAF Backflow Entry TPS (low throttle) vs. RPM: This value is used to determine the MAF failure mode if air backflow occurs at lower throttle positions.
MAF Backflow Low Throttle Enable: Determines when the MAF Backflow Entry TPS (low throttle) table is used.
MAF Adaption: Enable/Disable fuel trim updates during enrichment or enleanment.
MAF Default Baro: This value is used when the MAF is considered failed.
Cylair Filter: When enabled(and Anticipation Logic is Disabled) a filtered valu of MAF airmass is used by the PCM. When disabled the current calculated airmass from the MAF is used by the PCM.
Cylair Anticipation Logic: When enabled and the Cylair Filter is enabled a complex prediction algorithm is used to calculate the cylinder airmass.
Cylair Use Idle Filter Coeff: If enabled, an extra filtering is done for the airmass calculation.
Cylair Idle Filter Coeff: The filter coefficient used during idle airmass calculations if Use Idle Filter is enabled.
Cylair WOT Multiplier: This value is used to calculate the upper limit on the calculated cylinder airmass. It multiplies the current airmass value.
Cylair Max Multiplier: This value is used to calculate the upper limit on the calculated cylinder airmass. It multiplies the calculated WOT airmass value.
Intake Manifold Volume: The volume of the intake manifold.

FOR Speed Density

Speed Density

VE Correction(Temp) vs. ACT:
VE Correction(Density) vs. ACT:
VE Correction vs. ACT vs. ECT:
Airmass TPS Failed vs. RPM: This is the estimated cylinder airmass when the TPS sensor has failed.
MAP at Zero Airmass IMRC Closed: This is the theoretical MAP value for when the cylinder airmass is zero and the IMRC is closed.
MAP at Zero Airmass IMRC Open: This is the theoretical MAP value for when the cylinder airmass is zero and the IMRC is open.
MAP at Zero Airmass Mult vs. Baro: This is a multiplier of the theoretical MAP value for when the cylinder airmass is zero.
MAP per Airmass IMRC Closed: This is the MAP per Airmass value used in the speed density calculation when the IMRC is closed.
MAP per Airmass IMRC Open: This is the MAP per Airmass value used in the speed density calculation when the IMRC is open.

[RobCat030]

Here, did it kind of backwards from air load just to demonstrate the point. Ideally you use a corrected MAF value lbs/min (+-fuel trims) to get cylinder air mass. User math is: MAF/(RPM*2)

As you can see you only grabbed like four cell hits at 4150RPM, so the accuracy of the regression is questionable. You want something like a few hundred. I plugged the data manually into the SD tables so you can see what the calculator thinks of it. Looks reasonable. To me, this is a much better use of the calculator (to check your work). I could also generate a max trapped aircharge line in excel if I wanted to know exactly when you crossed into blowthrough.

And as I said earlier, this isn't accurate to just one MP because you've allowed the cams to move around.

Screenshot 2022-03-07 193034.pngScreenshot 2022-03-07 193020.png

[DCLTLLC14]

Here, did it kind of backwards from air load just to demonstrate the point. Ideally you use a corrected MAF value lbs/min (+-fuel trims) to get cylinder air mass. User math is: MAF/(RPM*2)

As you can see you only grabbed like four cell hits at 4150RPM, so the accuracy of the regression is questionable. You want something like a few hundred. I plugged the data manually into the SD tables so you can see what the calculator thinks of it. Looks reasonable. To me, this is a much better use of the calculator (to check your work). I could also generate a max trapped aircharge line in excel if I wanted to know exactly when you crossed into blowthrough.

And as I said earlier, this isn't accurate to just one MP because you've allowed the cams to move around.

Screenshot 2022-03-07 193034.pngScreenshot 2022-03-07 193020.png

GOD!! I wish I could get that many cell hits. I'm doing this on the street until we finally buy a dyno. Which Id be done by now if i did because this weather is not on my side. I understand what you are saying about the cams are still moving. If I lock the cams angles and do all my degrees that you are saying, then put them back to how i want them optimized for power, id have to go back into those sd map tables to adjust air again which would literally kill me at this point correct? or am i over thinking.... At least that's what I'm thinking when you say that.

My main question though Robcat030 - Now this vehicle Does Not have a MAF sensor, So back to what you were stating about the cylair anticipation being disabled and people not bothering with the sd tables. Is that meaning they are only maf tuning With a mMAF still equipped in the vehicle??? or is there something else I could do instead of adjusting sd map to map like manipulating a maf curve in maf-airflow vs period which would be impossible right for the computer to know where i am in the curve to use it with out a MAF installed or is it possible??? Also should i have clyair anticipation enabled when doing sd tuning?? I thought it was the reason my data was chasing around so i disabled it.... but honestly zeroing out bank 1&2 bias tables is what made a huge difference in my data which thanks to mustang man for that info but thank all you guys that chimed in to help me!!