Does anyone here know how to tune the 1st gen 6R80? Looking for clues on how the TCC table works (and why there's four of them) and a few other areas.
Does anyone here know how to tune the 1st gen 6R80? Looking for clues on how the TCC table works (and why there's four of them) and a few other areas.
Can someone please explain what these values mean? I don't have "ongoing clutch" or "offgoing clutch" or "tcc ramp rate" or anything like that. This is SCT software btw and you're looking at the 12 and 21 shift pressure scalars. I also have ramp pressure offset tables and pressure tables. The ramp offsets are time delay in ms vs pressure, and the pressure table is unknown values. Theoretically upping the values raises the pressure during shifts, but what pressure? What is the ramp delay for? So many questions...
12-21 Pressure Scalars.png
The on-coming clutch has a fill time at maximum pressure, a lower increasing pressure ramp to begin engagement as indicated by pullup or pulldown, and a closed-loop control triggered by pullup or pulldown. The closed-loop control commands the pressure to control the turbine speed to a calculated profile to bring the speed to a target value. When the target value is attained the closed-loop control is terminated and maximum pressure is applied. For low speed shifts and for a high speed shift between forward and reverse, the target value is zero. For high speed shifts from neutral the target value may be either above or below the initial turbine speed.Originally Posted by calculate
So would numerically increasing these values help speed up shifts? In other words that would increase the ramp rate? What would the offset tables control?
Upshift Pressure Oncoming - starting pressure before any adapts that controls how firmly the oncoming (next gear) clutch applies. Bump these to firm up your upshifts.
Upshift Pressure Offgoing - starting pressure before any adapts that controls how firmly the off going "current gear" clutch is held. Raise these if you develop any shift flair.
Downshift Pressure Oncoming - pressure that controls how firm the clutch applies during a downshift. I usually leave these alone.
Downshift Pressure Off going - pressure that control how firm the current gear is held during a downshift. I usually leave these alone as well.
Boost Pressure - never needed to change them.
Boost time - related to how long the boost pressure is applied. Never messed with it.
Ramp Rate - ramp rate. Usually controls how quickly pressure is built or released. Raising ramp rates will make things happen faster. I bump my open loop oncoming ramp rates a little where WOT cells would apply. 3000rpm and above
Last edited by mstang_man; 03-12-2022 at 01:48 PM. Reason: spelling
The first gen doesn't have oncoming or offgoing pressures, at least described as such. There's a pressure table, but no indication of when each value would apply.
the offset is a consideration or amount that diminishes or balances the effect.
here is another XLS you might be able to use..
Last edited by mstang_man; 03-12-2022 at 02:56 PM.
Take a look at these pressure tables. I can't find a way to translate these to the phases of a shift.
ShiftPressure12.pngendramppressureoffset12.png
My goal is to speed up shifts at half and WOT because as-is I lose a LOT of momentum and shifts are very slow. There's a maximum allowed shift time setting. Reducing that by 75% seems to speed up shifts at WOT but doesn't make anything firmer. I know the Drive by Wire section plays into this somehow because I tried a completely different setup in there and suddenly the trans would shift hard at half throttle and then cause rpm flare and power surge. It also downshifted way too easily. No changes were made in the trans section, so I'm led to believe that's all due to differences in torque calculation. It's on my to-do list to make sure the torque tables are as accurate as I can get them without a dyno. I thought I could monitor wheel torque error but that didn't seem to work.
Do you Have these table in your Calibration.. also the you could try raising the pressure table by 10%, i am trying to find my data she if it covers any changes to the end ramp pressure offset 12. trans shift Schedule.JPGTrans WOT Shift RPM 12.JPG
Last edited by mstang_man; 03-13-2022 at 06:11 PM. Reason: spelling
No I don't.
your tuning an edge, explorer or F150? this my approach for my street car 08-09 Mustang
6R80
My approach has been as follows:
take the max line pressure up more base 150 set to 200 and try , and adjust all the up shift pressure tables to match your max line pressure
* Min Time Until Shift for Lockup 0.0
* Max Vehicle Acceleration Rate 70.0
*Amount of Time Before Next Shift to Lock Conv 0.0
*Converter Lock Delay After Shift ~0.375 in 2-5
*Set Trans Converter Lock in 3rd & 4th just a few MPH after the shift should be completing (high TPS cts)
*Set Trans Converter Unlock in 3rd and 4th lowish MPH (all TPS cts)
*Unlock on Shift Based on Gear left stock
*Unlock During Shift (Normal/Off Road/Tow Haul) left stock
*Switch to Use RPM Anticipated Shifts 1 (On)
*Max Allowed Pressure 250.0
*Converter Clutch Boost Pressure 75.0
*Throttle Rate to Unlock Hi/Lo Tip-in & Tip-out 500.0 / -500.0
*Trans Torque Converter Control Slip & RPM tables left stock
* Switches for All Torque Reductions / Torque Rate Limiting / Reduction on Shift / Truncation all 0.0
I'd really like to get the converter locked in at least 3rd and 4th, even to remain locked across the shifts if possible. Logging speed ratio across the converter is .65 to .90 when I'd really like to see it locked at 1.0.
with the anticipated shifts on, I set all of the shift schedules (all modes) so that my MPH is above the WOT RPM shift point in each gear. Looking for the RPM to dominate the start of the shift.
I have a 2010 Explorer Sport Trac. Expedition is very similar, I've been comparing the HP Tuners file against mine. Haven't found a Sport Trac HP tune yet.
I would love to do all those things you mention, but I just can't. There aren't parameters for a lot of it. No anticipated shifts, no TCC pressure (which is a problem because it won't lock in 3rd at WOT and throws a code). There isn't a tow/haul mode, only O/D disable. No base pressure setting. Absolutely nothing described as "boost pressure". It's all lookup tables and offsets.
do you have access to SCT software? PRP package?
Yes I have PRP with access to all parameters.
trying to dig up some info to help you out, end ramp offset the solenoid is commanded to increase clutch pressure at Fixed Ramp Rate (which is determined by ECU programming). During Clutch Fill and Fixed Ramp Rate, off-going clutch is decreasing pressure (Ramping Off). The ECU monitors turbine speed and varies solenoid duty cycle. ECU also sees throttle position, engine rpm, output shaft rpm, other data. At Synchronous Speed Detected the clutch is commanded to Time To Full Apply.
I'm starting to paint a picture of how to control shifts now. I just spent some time comparing the 2010 Expedition tune in VCM to my 2010 Sport Trac tune in Advantage (same TCM). They each have something the other doesn't, but overall I think all the important pieces are there. One odd difference is VCM uses a table for offgoing clutch pressure, but Advantage is a single value. Advantage has all the pressure ramp offset tables, but VCM doesn't have any. VCM has clutch boost pressure and time tables, but Advantage doesn't have any. It's really not clear if one is any better than the other due to each missing different things.
Here are the changes I have so far (don't think I mentioned yet my truck is supercharged and that effectively breaks the stock shift characteristics). Shifts at WOT are hard to describe. They are very slow to start (RPM of shift FAR beyond commanded point) but happen decently fast with no jerking and minimal loss of momentum. This is a stark change from stock where shifts are jerky and uncomfortable in every way with lots of lost momentum.
Raised non-shift line pressure 25% and that alone made a world of difference to power delivery. Went from feeling sloppy to being consistent and predictable.
As for shifts, I've tweaked various things but don't yet know which settings are providing the improvements I can feel.
Offgoing clutch pressure +25%
Time Ramp for Shift Pressure +50%
Closing Ramp Pressure Offset decreased X axis 400ms to 200ms (theory is pressure applies sooner?)
End Ramp Pressure Offset decreased X axis 400ms to 200ms
Oncoming Clutch pressure table +25%
Max Shift Time -75%
Torque Reduction +25% (Theory being reduced stress on clutches = faster shifts)
Problems
I'm hitting a rev limit around 6250 but can't find anything causing it. Every limit I've seen is 7000+. Feels like its cutting fuel as if I were hitting a speed limiter. ETC torque reduction is set at 6750rpm
1-2 at WOT hits the rev limit, 2-3 comes real close. 1-2 is commanded at 5145 RPM. 2-3 is 5848
Improvements I'd like to see
Faster clutch fill times (actual shift RPM closer to commanded)
Firmer shifts at WOT (chirping 2nd would be cool)
Increased TCC pressure. I have a Max Converter Clutch Power table, but units are unknown. Seems to be temp in C or maybe MPH vs ???. ??? is 2000 from 10 to 100, and 1000 at 130. No equivalent in VCM to compare against.
these are some of the changes i have read others have done besides what we already discussed.
Raising the line pressure to 250-265 i wouldnt go any higher that should give that second gear chirp.
You would have to command a much higher rpm then your targeted.
Turn Anticipated shift Off
ETC torque reduction try setting at 7250rpm
Shift RPM Normal - WOT try setting at 7000 for 1>2, 2>3, 3>4
Make sure your wot shift mph is higher than your shift rpm
increasing upshift pressure and shifting ramp rate is key to faster and hard shifting with torque management off.
Last edited by mstang_man; 03-14-2022 at 08:34 AM.
I have finally figured out that Shift Table 5 is the only one used for normal 2wd and 4wd during both normal driving and WOT. Every first gen 6R80 owner needs to know that. I'm going to see if the O/D button uses a separate table (which I think it does) and try to use that for sport mode.
Raising line pressure 200% (except WOT) makes a noticeably faster shift and overall tighter feeling trans. Going to max out the tables to 250psi and see how that feels. 2-3 shifts right at 6000 now (down from 6250) with no other changes.
I have to command the 1-2 shift at 4500rpm to shift at 6000rpm. That severely inhibits acceleration, so I'm going to test with 0 torque reduction, and if that's not enough start reducing maximum throttle in 1st. May also attempt shifting closer to 7000, but need to overcome rev limit. That 4.17 ratio is pretty wild. Going to see if the F250 gearset can be swapped in.
I have cracked the code for ultra-fast shifts. Time Ramp Scalars are the key to everything. Numerically lower is faster, and 0 will have it shifting fast enough to snap your neck.
Basic steps for neck-snapping shifts
Increase non-shift pressure tables to 250psi (17.3 bar) and leave stock values alone if higher
Increase shift pressure tables 200%
Reduce Time Ramp for Shift Pressure and Time for 2nd Ramp Step Shift to 0
Reduce Trans Slip Time tables by 25%
Reduce Torque Reduction tables to 0
Wait till you see the Adrenaline auto transmission functions.
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