2010 ram 5.7 with 2018 6.4 swap and 14' srt8 cam

[Matt_lq4]

A friend mentioned their recent swap and asked me to tune it.
What kind of tuning issues will I encounter with the following setup being ran by a 2010 Dodge Ram 5.7 ecu?

2018 6.4 hemi out of a 2500 Ram
2014 6.4 cam from an srt8 300c

I do see I can transfer most of the vvt settings from the 2014 tune 6.4 tune into the 2010 ram 5.7 tune, that should cover the swapped cam.

Hopefully I can get this running alright without needing the Neural Network, but focusing on the Maf for fueling. However I didn't see any maf tables in the tune despite a maf being listed for these vehicles.

Thanks

[GaS Engines]

All the VVT cars/trucks use MAP rather than MAF.

[Matt_lq4]

Thanks I see now. I read a bit more into this and see that I have to use the Neural Network trainer as the customer is keeping VVT.

So far I've input all the VVT settings and spark settings from a 2013 6.4 300c srt8 tune into this 2010 tune, as the camshaft in use is from a 2013 6.4 srt8.

Now I just have to find a 2014-2018 Ram truck 6.4 tune and input the fuel injector data...then focus on the NN and carry on.

[Matt_lq4]

I subscribed to neural networking, so if I want to tune part throttle and idle in closed loop with fuel trims, can I set up my neural tuning like in the picture I attached?

In the filter I entered the intake and cam angles I want data for. Now I have to figure out in the tune itself if I change all the angles for every intake/exhaust angle combination the neural trainer table has shown me.

In other words 25 different PRatio x RPM tables to "multiply by %" all my fuel trim data, 1 table at a time.

Intake: 104 114.75 125.5 136.25 147
Exhaust: 94 104.75 115.5 126.25 137

[Matt_lq4]

Anyone that has done Neural Network training on a 2010+ dodge hemi v8 ecu, do you make your adjustments at the Exhaust cam angle?

If so, how do you guys integrate the Intake cam into all this as it appears I have to make 25 tables as I posted above. Haven't found anything online that goes into this, everything is people adjusting the IPW before the NN training was available.

[GaS Engines]

Anyone that has done Neural Network training on a 2010+ dodge hemi v8 ecu, do you make your adjustments at the Exhaust cam angle?

If so, how do you guys integrate the Intake cam into all this as it appears I have to make 25 tables as I posted above. Haven't found anything online that goes into this, everything is people adjusting the IPW before the NN training was available.

All the VVT adjustments are to the Exhaust cam lobe position. I've never needed to use NN Trainer so I cant say much on that aspect, I've always just turned off NN and used VE tables for tuning on larger cams/builds as most use a phaser limiter or complete lockout.

[Matt_lq4]

All the VVT adjustments are to the Exhaust cam lobe position. I've never needed to use NN Trainer so I cant say much on that aspect, I've always just turned off NN and used VE tables for tuning on larger cams/builds as most use a phaser limiter or complete lockout.

Thank you, I will adjust the exhaust cam settings and see how all this goes. I wanted to skip the NN also but the owner insists on utilizing VVT so I'm stuck here experimenting a little.

[rockystock]

Hey man, I stumbled through the NNT a while back, successfully I think . Just some quick points:

- Hemi has one cam, exhaust and intake lobes fixed together. This means you only need to tune FIVE of the 25 NNT tables. Which five? The five that correspond to your fixed lobe separation, AS INDICATED BY YOUR PCM. Look at your exh and int center lobe positions in a log to see what that value is. Simply add the two numbers together - that's what your PCM sees as your lobe separation. Remember this value - you'll need it to verify your NNT setup.

- Your intake and exhaust "training values" define where each of the five NNT tables sits along the sweep of your cam. Look at a log to see WHAT THE PCM SEES at the extreme ends of the cam sweep, and then use those values as your "training values." For example, my PCM sees - at max advance - 127 degrees exhaust / 101.5 degrees intake. Likewise, at max phase my PCM sees 89 degrees exhaust / 139.5 degrees intake. So those are the values I have in my camshaft "training values." I suspect with the 2010 5.7 PCM, your setup will be indicating something similar. The PCM doesn't care what your actual cam angles are; for tuning the NNT, neither should you.

Why are the training values important? The NNT will take those values and assign one table at each extreme (max advance and max phase), and three additional tables interpolated evenly between the two extremes.

- Once you get your training values correct, go into the NNT and look at your tables. You only need to focus on the five tables where the lobe separation is correct for your setup. In the exhaust cam angle drop-down, select the max advance (highest number). In the intake cam angle drop-down, select the max phase (lowest number). Check to verify the lobe separation between those two numbers matches your setup (e.g., 228.5 for mine). Now check the other four tables. You'll notice that you will be selecting the top number in the exhaust menu along with the bottom number in the intake menu, and vice versa. As you move down in the exhaust menu, you'll be moving up in the intake menu.

This ought to get you on the right path. If you want, post up a tune and a log showing your intake and exhaust cam centerline positions (showing at least idle and light throttle cruising, so I can see your extreme cam angles), and I can help you get the NNT set up.

Also, if this wasn't confusing enough, here's my earlier thread, stumbles and all:

https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...ghlight=neural

[Matt_lq4]

Thank you for your reply. Adding the intake cam and exhaust cam center positions at any point in time seems to give a similar value to your 228.5*.
In the NNT, I was provided with these 5 exhaust angles so I locked that exhaust angle in the tune (just made the exhaust angles all one value such as 88*), and below are the Intake Cam Center Position values I saw in the logs.

Here are my exhaust cam values the NNT provided and the corresponding intake cam center position the logs showed.
Exh:
88 exh= intake cam center position of 140
98.75= 131.3 intake cam center position
109.5= 120.4 intake
120.25= 109.7 intake
131= 102 intake

[Matt_lq4]

I ended up working through the NNT and got fueling much better however I have some questions.
When you are locking the exhaust cam angle for tuning and make the angles in the tune command all one value, do you still need to make the intake cam angles all one value also? Like if you're working on the exhaust cam center position of 98.75*, do you still make the intake angles all 131, or do you completely leave any intake cam angles alone?

Also in the NNT, I noticed even on tables that you deselect "Use table for training," those all still get slightly changed after you "export for training."
I noticed this when starting a new training file directly after and comparing the values in those PRatio x RPM tables the NNT provides, they were all adjusted automatically.

[Matt_lq4]

I just read through your link and wow thank you very much for going in such detail. I swear I didn't see your thread when I was first searching about the NNT process but see how immensely handy it would have been for all the questions I had.

I do see that you also max the intake cam values all one value when locking the exhaust cam, so I will do that from now on.
I also see from the thread that the HP Tuner engineer said to stick to 5 tables and uncheck the "use for training" box for all others, so I'll stick with that also.

The last bits I need to clean up to get this working 100% like yours, is to input proper data in my 2010 5.7 ecu for the 2013 6.4 cam. I did stumble upon other threads where they said to use the 6.4 cam angles and subtract 7 to 10 from them like you mentioned, but some said to leave the 5.7 settings alone as they will be very close to the adjusted 6.4 values. So currently I left them at the 5.7 2010 settings.

So I'm happy about most of the process but getting these angles correct for the training values, is something I could probably improve on. Currently my trims are about -4 at part throttle on average and at higher low load rpms like 4500 rpm. I am happy with that but I would like to do the process perfectly for next time.
Here are my VVT and NNT settings in the tune currently.

[Victor@HPTuners]

Also in the NNT, I noticed even on tables that you deselect "Use table for training," those all still get slightly changed after you "export for training."
I noticed this when starting a new training file directly after and comparing the values in those PRatio x RPM tables the NNT provides, they were all adjusted automatically.

Removing the "Use table for training" checkbox tells the Neural Network Trainer that Neural Network output values in that area do not matter. This allows it to focus on areas which are actually used, giving a lower average error in those areas.

As for tables changing their values, that is to be expected. Every time the neural network is retrained, all tables will change slightly.

[rockystock]

Thank you for your reply. Adding the intake cam and exhaust cam center positions at any point in time seems to give a similar value to your 228.5*.
In the NNT, I was provided with these 5 exhaust angles so I locked that exhaust angle in the tune (just made the exhaust angles all one value such as 88*), and below are the Intake Cam Center Position values I saw in the logs.

Here are my exhaust cam values the NNT provided and the corresponding intake cam center position the logs showed.
Exh:
88 exh= intake cam center position of 140
98.75= 131.3 intake cam center position
109.5= 120.4 intake
120.25= 109.7 intake
131= 102 intake

OK so the NNT gave you those exhaust cam values because in your Training Values, you have 88 and 131 for your exhaust cam min and max. If those are the extreme exhaust cam angles you see by logging the exh cam center position, then your exhaust Training Values are OK. If not, then I'd recommend finding out exactly what exhaust angles you see in your logs for max advance and max phase, and use those values as your training values. Now for the Intake training values, simply take your actual lobe separation (as seen in your logs, the sum of the exhaust and intake angles) and subtract the corresponding exhaust values. If you're successful, then all five of your NNT tables will show the correct lobe separation, and your extreme tables (max advance and max phase) will cover the entire range of the cam.

Here's an example. Logs show minimum exhaust angle is 89, max exhaust angle is 127. Lobe separation is constant at 228.5. You would then set up your training values as follows:

Exhaust Cam Max: 127
Exhaust Cam Min: 89
Intake Cam Max: [228.5 - 89] = 139.5
Intake Cam Min: [228.5 - 127] = 101.5

With the above Training Values, the NNT would setup the five relevant tables as follows:

Table #	Exhaust	Intake
1.	127	101.5
2.	117.5	111
3.	108	120.5
4.	98.5	130
5.	89	139.5

[rockystock]

I just read through your link and wow thank you very much for going in such detail. I swear I didn't see your thread when I was first searching about the NNT process but see how immensely handy it would have been for all the questions I had.

I do see that you also max the intake cam values all one value when locking the exhaust cam, so I will do that from now on.
I also see from the thread that the HP Tuner engineer said to stick to 5 tables and uncheck the "use for training" box for all others, so I'll stick with that also.

The last bits I need to clean up to get this working 100% like yours, is to input proper data in my 2010 5.7 ecu for the 2013 6.4 cam. I did stumble upon other threads where they said to use the 6.4 cam angles and subtract 7 to 10 from them like you mentioned, but some said to leave the 5.7 settings alone as they will be very close to the adjusted 6.4 values. So currently I left them at the 5.7 2010 settings.

So I'm happy about most of the process but getting these angles correct for the training values, is something I could probably improve on. Currently my trims are about -4 at part throttle on average and at higher low load rpms like 4500 rpm. I am happy with that but I would like to do the process perfectly for next time.
Here are my VVT and NNT settings in the tune currently.

Intake Cam Position Tables:

Any time I change my "commanded" exhaust cam tables, I'll also change the intake tables. Here's how I do it quickly, for each table: copy the exhaust table, paste it into the Intake table, then multiply entire (intake) table by -1 (answer the popup warning by first checking the box that says, "Do not prompt me again for this parameter, this session" and THEN click "Yes"), and finally with all cells still selected, add your lobe separation angle (228.5 in my example). I don't think the intake tables matter, but I don't know for sure and it's less confusing for me to just keep them consistent with the exhaust.

Use ALL 25 Tables for Training??

I've trained the network both ways, and you might have better luck zeroing in on a particular problem area (like VE at idle, or the WOT peak) if you train it one way vs. the other.

What are the best cam position tables for the most Hp / Torque?

Ah, that is the right question. You'll have to experiment with the 5.7 engine / 6.4 cam combo. Right now, my setup is stock 6.4 engine (with a 5.7 PCM) and I've heard there isn't much to be gained by messing with cam timing. So I started with the stock 6.4 tables and tweaked them to find the correct offset for the 5.7 PCM. I read somewhere that the actual offset might be 6.2 degrees; I'm running that now, however my butt dyno is still registering "danger" either way.

[Matt_lq4]

Again you are amazing for going into this so thoroughly.
I do see in my logs that the maximum Exhaust Cam Center Position is 127.5* (but the Exhaust Cam Desired Angle can get to 130* as I've noticed in the logs).

Also, to correct my last statement, I generally see 230 when adding the Intake Cam Center position and Exhaust Cam Center position from my logs at any one time, still close to your 228.5* but not exactly.

I typically don't see less than 107* on the Exhaust in my logs but I am also not commanding any less as 107 is what I set for up to redline and at idle it sees 127* in the Exh Cam Center position.

However the only time I've seen it less was when manually locking the exhaust cam to 88* (as well as other locked angles a bit higher during tuning). So here the Exhaust Cam Desired angle says 88* but the Exhaust Cam Center Position at the exact same time can only get to 89.9*(usually 90*).

[Matt_lq4]

Removing the "Use table for training" checkbox tells the Neural Network Trainer that Neural Network output values in that area do not matter. This allows it to focus on areas which are actually used, giving a lower average error in those areas.

As for tables changing their values, that is to be expected. Every time the neural network is retrained, all tables will change slightly.

Thanks for clearing that up Victor. I almost wish we had a box that says "uncheck all" as although I make sure the 5 tables I'm tuning are checked "use for training," the remaining 20 tables by default stay checked "use for training."
So I simply will have to go through the other 20 and uncheck them every time I'm training.

[Matt_lq4]

OK so the NNT gave you those exhaust cam values because in your Training Values, you have 88 and 131 for your exhaust cam min and max. If those are the extreme exhaust cam angles you see by logging the exh cam center position, then your exhaust Training Values are OK. If not, then I'd recommend finding out exactly what exhaust angles you see in your logs for max advance and max phase, and use those values as your training values. Now for the Intake training values, simply take your actual lobe separation (as seen in your logs, the sum of the exhaust and intake angles) and subtract the corresponding exhaust values. If you're successful, then all five of your NNT tables will show the correct lobe separation, and your extreme tables (max advance and max phase) will cover the entire range of the cam.

Here's an example. Logs show minimum exhaust angle is 89, max exhaust angle is 127. Lobe separation is constant at 228.5. You would then set up your training values as follows:

Exhaust Cam Max: 127
Exhaust Cam Min: 89
Intake Cam Max: [228.5 - 89] = 139.5
Intake Cam Min: [228.5 - 127] = 101.5

With the above Training Values, the NNT would setup the five relevant tables as follows:

Table #	Exhaust	Intake
1.	127	101.5
2.	117.5	111
3.	108	120.5
4.	98.5	130
5.	89	139.5

Thanks again, I will keep the sum of 230 in mind and subtract the Exh Cam angle I'm working on from 230 to get the proper corresponding Intake Cam angle for my inputs.

Looking at my last NNT training values that were generated in the NNT tables, it looks like the 5 Exhaust and corresponding 5 Intake angles all add to 230* lobe separation, so that appears to be consistent.

So it looks like I should change my training values to these:
Exh Cam Max= 127.5*
Exh Cam Min= 89.9*
Intake Cam Max= 140.1*
Intake Cam Min= 102.5*

[rockystock]

Thanks again, I will keep the sum of 230 in mind and subtract the Exh Cam angle I'm working on from 230 to get the proper corresponding Intake Cam angle for my inputs.

Looking at my last NNT training values that were generated in the NNT tables, it looks like the 5 Exhaust and corresponding 5 Intake angles all add to 230* lobe separation, so that appears to be consistent.

So it looks like I should change my training values to these:
Exh Cam Max= 127.5*
Exh Cam Min= 89.9*
Intake Cam Max= 140.1*
Intake Cam Min= 102.5*

Yeah those numbers should work well for you.

[rockystock]

I think when the Mopar guys go beyond the possible cam positions, they're either intending to make the cam transition a bit more quickly to max advance (for the 130* example), or they're forcing the control system to basically shut off in that region (again, the 130* example), or some other sneaky trick like that. Bottom line for tuning is that the engine will only need to be tuned for as much advance (or retard) as the cam can actually give it.

I think there may be some small value to selecting training values that fall outside the possible range of the cam. One possible reason would be to force the NNT to generate a table that falls on a specific cam angle that you'd want to dial in as much as possible. Say you're racing the car competitively and need to have, say, 113* dialed in perfect because that's your cam angle at peak WOT torque. But that kind of specific knowledge is probably hard to come by, and it's also tricky to tune the out-of-range cam angle that the engine cannot actually attain.

[Matt_lq4]

I think when the Mopar guys go beyond the possible cam positions, they're either intending to make the cam transition a bit more quickly to max advance (for the 130* example), or they're forcing the control system to basically shut off in that region (again, the 130* example), or some other sneaky trick like that. Bottom line for tuning is that the engine will only need to be tuned for as much advance (or retard) as the cam can actually give it.

I think there may be some small value to selecting training values that fall outside the possible range of the cam. One possible reason would be to force the NNT to generate a table that falls on a specific cam angle that you'd want to dial in as much as possible. Say you're racing the car competitively and need to have, say, 113* dialed in perfect because that's your cam angle at peak WOT torque. But that kind of specific knowledge is probably hard to come by, and it's also tricky to tune the out-of-range cam angle that the engine cannot actually attain.

Yes I'll see how it goes with the new settings that are more in-line with what the cam gives us. I appreciate the help, I'll be installing a wideband in a few days and finishing up the tune. So far I was only using trims.
Here are my new cam angle targets, I'm excited to see how smoothly it goes this time around.