does turbo require rescaling of trans torque tables??

[turbo5.3silverado]

Hi
this is my first time tuning with HP Tuners. I have read tons of posts and cant seem to find anything that applies to me. I have a 2010 silverado 5.3 RCSB with a 6l80' was 2WD swapped in NP149 for AWD and a ebay turbo. I have rescaled my VVE tables and tuned OK I think as well as tuned the MAF. I'm lost on what to do with the trans. I2022-04-20-4.hpt2022-04-16-1.hpl2022-04-20-4.hpt2022-04-16-1.hpl was planning to add to my shift time torque adder table but it doesnt go very high? do I need to rescale or something? i appreciate any suggestions. thanks

[04silverado6.0]

The shift time torque adder is for shift times. You will need to dial in virtual torque as well to get the full effect from what you are doing in the trans portion.

[turbo5.3silverado]

Thanks for the reply
can you please explain how and where to adjust the virtual torque? The virtual torque tables are in airmass and spark degrees when I open them. Under table group it looks like I can change them to map vs spark and rescale the map axis to 315kpa the same as my VVE? is this correct? when I do this the torque numbers in the table go up so it looks better. And should I be increasing pressure? also TCC apply/release? I have so many questions.

[5FDP]

You'll need to address a few problems first before going to far.

This truck doesn't have big enough injectors for a turbo. It's going to want at least 50-60lb/hr injectors if you plan to make a decent amount of power. The stock 38lb/hr won't get you far with a turbo. Plus your commanded AFR is not good. You have it asking for 10.0 AFR in power enrichment, if that is what you had to command to make the wideband show 11's then the airflow model is all wrong right now. Having the airflow/fueling correct will make the transmission function a whole lot better.

[turbo5.3silverado]

Thanks 5FDP
I thought I read that my flex fuel injectors should be good for 650hp on gas only as they can provide enough fuel for E85 at regular power levels? I only plan to run around 7-8 psi boost. I will definitely lean out my PE. At first I raised it to make sure I wasnt going to go lean under boost while I adjusted the VVE table but never changed it back after realizing it barely ever goes into PE in regular driving where I'm adjusting my VVE table. I read alot of posts saying the 6L80 wont last long if you don't make any adjustments so that's why I was asking. The trans seems to be working the same as it always has just shifts early etc. I will readjust my PE to 11.5 AFR. I will post new tune and log this week sometime.

[5FDP]

Per the calculator I used, the stock injectors you have will be done at roughly 425hp if they didn't go past 85-90% duty cycle using a turbo.

If you wanted to make 500hp which wouldn't be hard to do it'll take injectors in the mid 40's at 85-90% duty cycle. If you decide to run E85, it'll need some 60's just to make 500hp with a little headroom left.

Add the injector pulse width avg for both banks so it can spit out the injector duty cycle in the charts, that way you can watch it.

[turbo5.3silverado]

Thanks again 5FDP
I added the PW to my scanner so I can watch it. in my last log I saw a max of 60% duty cycle. how high can I go? 85-90%? I also turned my MAF back on and reset fuel trim etc. since then so everything should work decent now or so I thought. It seems to run OK but the LTFT is pulling fuel making it slightly lean? Can I just add 1-2% to the stioch AFR table to stop this?


2022-04-30-1.hpl2022-04-30-1.hpt[

[blindsquirrel]

When figuring injector HP limits, don't forget that if it's still returnless, 8psi boost cuts injector flow rate by the same amount as if you were N/A and lowered fuel pressure by 8psi.

[turbo5.3silverado]

First off thanks for all the help guys. I am really new. On my last drive I logged 8 PSI boost and 110% injector duty cycle. It never went lean but as you guys said I need bigger injectors. What kind do you guys recommend? I am hoping to get something with OEM quality and with all required data for install?

[blindsquirrel]

12613412. 50lb, should be a direct fit to yer 2010 truck manifold/rails. Cheap. Data in 2010-up 2500 L96 files.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/274424906026
($20/ea from 'trusted' sources, so there's something going on with supply of this part number: https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=1887186)

[turbo5.3silverado]

perfect thanks

[turbo5.3silverado]

Thanks again for all the help.
I installed the new injectors today and downloaded a 2010 silverado 6.0L stock tune from the repository. do I need to copy and paste all of the differences under the general tab? or just the injector control tab? there appears to be alot of differences? I tried searching is there a list somewhere?

[blindsquirrel]

2022-04-30-1 12613412.hpt

[turbo5.3silverado]

that is awesome much appreciated. thanks again

[blindsquirrel]

Here's the file I used, save it for reference. It's even the same OS as your original.

2010 Yukon 6.0 L96 E38 T43 1GKZKREG0AR189018 - 12613412.hpt

[cmitchell17]

As for your original question OP, which it may not even be what you were asking, but, I have heard people comment on how you have to "tune" the virtual torque tables when you go FI and start making big power. I have a L9H so truck stuff may be different than the cars, but in my opinion you don't have to and you could probably do more potential damage and slip your clutches if you are not careful.

Here is my stock virtual torque and I displayed tables from the coefficients up to a max of 2500mg of airmass, which is what I hit peak at about 12-14psi of turbo boost, to me the stock tables are perfectly linear so basically you could keep going up in power and the stock coefficients would correctly extrapolate out to your new increased power level and do it perfectly linear:

Capture.JPG

Now with that said the torque that it is reporting with my turbo at around 10-14 psi seems way way too high, its peaking at over 1000 ft-lbs, which I know I can't be even close running only 10-14 psi on a stock 6.2 L9H. However, I think my torque values may be high because for some other reason I think my airmass per cylinder is reporting abnormally high. However, it seems that would be impossible since I have tuned everything based on my wideband feedback, which says I am within about 5-7% error at WOT, so not so sure and confident about that part.

What does everyone else think? Do the stock torque tables not extrapolate correctly for increased power levels over stock? Is the relationship between airmass, torque, and RPM not linear? Obviously the relationship between torque and RPM is not linear since volumetric efficiency changes drastically based on RPM, however, the torque tables report out airmass and not VE.

[hjtrbo]

I understand what you're saying about the VT. The need to "tune" them does exist but I think some people reckon it needs to be done on a dyno and tuned in like a VE table or something. That is far from what needs to be done for Gen 4. For as long as I've been exploring with them, there are 3 areas that benefit from getting it right.

Idle (20-30Nm)
WOT (Dyno reading + 130Nm)
Decel (should always report negative, only needs touching up if there were big changes to WOT torque)

With those settings right, cruise should be in the ball park (approx. 150Nm flat road 100km/h 4500lb typical full size sedan)

So long as injector data is good and the tune is good everything else will play nice.


Looking at your picture, at 30deg 1500mg airmass you're at 885 lb-ft which doesn't sound to far off. I'd like to see what it is at 20deg, would think it would be around 800 lb-ft? If so then your torque tables are close enough. Maybe something up with MAF or injector flow rate???

[turbo5.3silverado]

Hi Guys
looking at your attached pic your airmass goes up to 2500? did you adjust the max and recalculate? Mine only go to 800 making my torque max at 450. My spark seems to drop to near 0 degrees when I get into boost and I am not sure why. I attached my tune and most recent log. At about 4 minutes 30 seconds into the log I'm trying to accelerate quickly....lol and the spark has weird drops? Also separate problem just after that CEL came on P0121 and limp mode? It seems I may be chasing multiple issues but any help is appreciated. thanks

[cmitchell17]

Hi Guys
looking at your attached pic your airmass goes up to 2500? did you adjust the max and recalculate? Mine only go to 800 making my torque max at 450. My spark seems to drop to near 0 degrees when I get into boost and I am not sure why. I attached my tune and most recent log. At about 4 minutes 30 seconds into the log I'm trying to accelerate quickly....lol and the spark has weird drops? Also separate problem just after that CEL came on P0121 and limp mode? It seems I may be chasing multiple issues but any help is appreciated. thanks

You need to disable these checks once you go boosted, the ECM is expecting a certain amount of airflow and when you go boosted and increase the airflow past what's normal for a NA motor of that displacement, it will freak out and shut it down for safety reasons, so people can't sue them and say it accelerated on its on:

Capture.JPG

Once you do that, depending on your boost amount, you may also have to increase the axel and other torque limits in the torque management tab as well, or you can just max them out if you want. I have a OCD type behavior that makes me not want to max them out but put something rather realistic in them depending on how much boost and much torque I think it will make, but then that can come to haunt you if you forget about it and you hit some issue and can't figure out what's going on. Normally with something like that we can use one of the 5 or 6 or so redundantly and inconsistently named torque/torque limiting mode PIDs to see that's what's going on is a torque limit.

[cmitchell17]

I understand what you're saying about the VT. The need to "tune" them does exist but I think some people reckon it needs to be done on a dyno and tuned in like a VE table or something. That is far from what needs to be done for Gen 4. For as long as I've been exploring with them, there are 3 areas that benefit from getting it right.

Idle (20-30Nm)
WOT (Dyno reading + 130Nm)
Decel (should always report negative, only needs touching up if there were big changes to WOT torque)

With those settings right, cruise should be in the ball park (approx. 150Nm flat road 100km/h 4500lb typical full size sedan)

So long as injector data is good and the tune is good everything else will play nice.


Looking at your picture, at 30deg 1500mg airmass you're at 885 lb-ft which doesn't sound to far off. I'd like to see what it is at 20deg, would think it would be around 800 lb-ft? If so then your torque tables are close enough. Maybe something up with MAF or injector flow rate???

So yes I think you're right, the stock torque tables work and are fairly linear through the stock torque range. However, once we double the torque, the small little variances in the stock torque range get amplified, however this variance is only through RPM, as airmass increases everything still seems perfectly linear, look where this small deviation at low airmass gets blown up at double the stock airmass:

Capture.JPG

So good news is that's at like 900 rpm so you would never hit that in real life. It's almost like a perfectly linear table in both RPM and airmass will get you 99% of the way there? If you look at a normal 2D torque curve with RPM as the independent variable, it goes up and comes back down and peaks at a certain RPM as VE goes up and down, with a 3D torque curve like the VT shows, I don't see how torque will vary that much as long as airmass stays the same no matter what RPM is at? The only factor would be it would just about linearly decrease with increasing RPM because of friction, that seems to happen but barely on the stock VT tables as RPM goes up and friction goes up.