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Thread: P59 Trans Torque Management Issues

  1. #21
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    The ve table was tuned off wideband readings in lambda. It has been verified by two separate widebands, one vehicle mounted gauge using an LSU 4.9, and also verified with a trusted AFR500. The cam specs are 220/[email protected]? .612/.625 112LSA 108ICL 267.6/[email protected]?. Yes, the BRAF is 4g/sec higher than stock. It was an educated guess when the tune was started, and has worked perfectly for 2+ years, so I haven?t changed it. My idle adapt (STIT) is rarely ever more than +/- 0.5g/sec, and my dynamic and idle airflow closely overlap each other at idle, therefore I see no reason to change it. Cold start, hot start, idle manners are all fine.

    I will post the new SD tune file and a log tonight after work.

  2. #22
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    Here is the current tune revision and a couple logs
    my 2006 silver truck.hpt
    drive 52222.hpl
    drive home.hpl

  3. #23
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
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    Quick question
    Have you verified actual line pressure with a mechanical gauge lately?

    Also a few of the WOT shifts I looked ay were off from the Tune
    1-2
    WOT RPM 5600 in your Tune - in the log it doesn't shift until 6400
    WOT Shift Speed 39 MPH in your Tune - it was at 49 for the shift
    2-3
    WOT RPM 5200 Tune - Log was 6300
    WOT Shift Speed 70 MPH - Log was 91

    So while your happy with TM at WOT it isn't really doing what iys being asked to do
    Last edited by dhoagland; 05-24-2022 at 08:45 AM.
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhoagland View Post
    Quick question
    Have you verified actual line pressure with a mechanical gauge lately?

    Also a few of the WOT shifts I looked ay were off from the Tune
    1-2
    WOT RPM 5600 in your Tune - in the log it doesn't shift until 6400
    WOT Shift Speed 39 MPH in your Tune - it was at 49 for the shift
    2-3
    WOT RPM 5200 Tune - Log was 6300
    WOT Shift Speed 70 MPH - Log was 91

    So while your happy with TM at WOT it isn't really doing what iys being asked to do
    Yes, line pressure has been verified with a mechanical gauge when the trans was rebuilt 2-3 weeks ago.

    I should note those logs were taken with the trans in "performance" mode, in which case the logged shift points do coincide with the tune.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverBullet6.0 View Post
    Yes, line pressure has been verified with a mechanical gauge when the trans was rebuilt 2-3 weeks ago.

    I should note those logs were taken with the trans in "performance" mode, in which case the logged shift points do coincide with the tune.
    Darn
    I missed that...

    Just throwing somethings out there..

    Shift Pressure - Shift Pressure modifiers in lower rpm range?

    Knock Retard recovery rate (I know its not KR, bit it is spark reduction)

    If your not concerned about TM say under 3000 RPM, maybe play with this.
    If it limits the reduction possibly it will come back quicker?
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    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhoagland View Post
    Darn
    I missed that...

    Just throwing somethings out there..

    Shift Pressure - Shift Pressure modifiers in lower rpm range?

    Knock Retard recovery rate (I know its not KR, bit it is spark reduction)

    If your not concerned about TM say under 3000 RPM, maybe play with this.
    If it limits the reduction possibly it will come back quicker?
    KR Recovery rate is 4x stock values. Shift pressure really shouldn't have any effect on this issue. My best guess is that due to the high stall torque converter, the pcm thinks the transmission is slipping on the shifts since rpm's aren't dropping significantly

  7. #27
    Senior Tuner kingtal0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverBullet6.0 View Post
    KR Recovery rate is 4x stock values. Shift pressure really shouldn't have any effect on this issue. My best guess is that due to the high stall torque converter, the pcm thinks the transmission is slipping on the shifts since rpm's aren't dropping significantly

    Makes me wonder how torque management with a stand-alone computer would be able to do any differently

    same trans, same communication, same issue? Magic sauce?

  8. #28
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    There?s got to be a way to define how much, or how little, rpm drop is acceptable on the shifts.

  9. #29
    Senior Tuner kingtal0n's Avatar
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    From the patents that user exxo... forgot his name. He posted some helpful publish documents here is what I briefly (emphasis on brief) interpreted,





    From the document,

    "FIGS. 2A is generally illustrative of a ratio change (upshift) from one ratio RAT(x) to a lower ratio RAT(y). The ratio (vertical axis) measured as the turbine speed to output shaft speed ratio, Nt/No, provides a measure of the shift progression over time (horizontal axis).

    Shift start time and finish time are defined by respective event based thresholds such as predetermined ratio thresholds or timer thresholds. In the present example for instance it is assumed that start time ts corresponds to the ratio Nt/No having reached a first predetermined value related to the first ratio RAT(x), for example a value equivalent to 90% of RAT(x). Alternatively, start time ts may correspond to the expiration of a predetermined amount of time from shift initiation. Both traces 201 and 203 represent an upshift which at the time of initiation are characterized by equivalent shift torques. However, both traces 201 and 203 correspond to a proportional mix of input torque (ETQ*TQRAT) and inertia torque (ITQ) making up shift torque (STQ) that differs from a mix associated with baseline calibration conditions, for example barometric pressure equal to one atmosphere. Assuming that the proportional mix is weighted more heavily toward input torque, an uncorrected percentage reduction of ETQ based upon the shift torque STQ as conventionally practiced is invoked at start time ts as illustrated in FIG. 2B (dashed line 207). The shift progresses until the ratio Nt/No reaches a second predetermined value related to the second ratio RAT(y), for example a value equivalent to 110% of RAT(y), whereafter further reduction of ETQ cease and the final ratio RAT(y) is achieved. This point corresponds to the shift finish time labeled tf2. It is noted here that the shift time corresponding to the shift represented by trace 203 (tf through tf2) is undesirably of lesser duration than the desired shift time (ts through tfl). The conventional engine torque reduction control applies the same reduction (207) regardless of the proportional mix of input torque and inertia torque. "


    So it looks like you are right about it looking at Ne, Nt, No: The turbine, input shaft, output shaft speeds and relating them by some ratio and expected difference to determine when a shift occurs.
    Its intuitive and seems like the document describes the similar behavior we interpreted,

    therefore. The only thing I can think based on what we have access to is manipulate the gear ratio and tire size wizard to influence the ECU into thinking a shift has occured with a very small drop in RPM ... until we get access to those other tables. "Scaling" the tune except for MPH and RPM instead of injectors. Alot of work very little gain... I won't be trying that. And even then, I've seen 4000stall converters shift from gear to gear without any RPM drop at all. So uh... wth do with that... idk
    What we really need a pressure sensor inside a drum that can tell the ECU when the drum is fully pressurized indicating the shift is complete. Suuuureee
    Last edited by kingtal0n; 05-24-2022 at 06:41 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by kingtal0n View Post
    For a long time I Questioned how the OEM Ecu knows when the shift is completed. There is no way for it to tell from the transmission communication effort. Therefore it must be an algorithm based on some difference the transmission makes after a shift is completed. Exactly as you are suggesting, I think its correct. Shift timing I am pretty sure is only for adaption methods, it checks shift time and then adds pressure if the shift is slow and visca versa. I've turned my adapts off and tried all different numbers in shift time tables with no effect or change which more or less confirms it is powerless to influence. And when we break down how the transmission works internally- the only thing that really happens is pressure and volume fills a drum to bring a gear on. Solenoids to shift gears are either "ON" or "OFF" there is no PWM control over solenoids for shifting. Therefore following all of this reasoning the only shift timing control the ECU really has is shift pressure via EPC which we can clearly identify using Force motor current.
    For trivia purposes, just finished specing out and building my first 4L60E. Around 2005 the 4L60E incorporated a input shaft speed sensor. Not sure if all trucks / transmissions came with the sensor or not. Kind of hit or miss. I would think the computer could compare input speed to output speed to see if the gear / clutch pack has fully engaged. There's also a pressure switch manifold on the bottom of the valve body. I assume it simply shows when the pressure has stabilized for a given gear (wouldn't know slip). I'm just getting into tuning side now... Having similar issues with Torque Management pulling timing.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by weinerschizel View Post
    For trivia purposes, just finished specing out and building my first 4L60E. Around 2005 the 4L60E incorporated a input shaft speed sensor. Not sure if all trucks / transmissions came with the sensor or not. Kind of hit or miss. I would think the computer could compare input speed to output speed to see if the gear / clutch pack has fully engaged. There's also a pressure switch manifold on the bottom of the valve body. I assume it simply shows when the pressure has stabilized for a given gear (wouldn't know slip). I'm just getting into tuning side now... Having similar issues with Torque Management pulling timing.
    Thats a good point about the input shaft speed. I kept thinking of turbine and converter being the culprit and never even realized that the input shaft speed would need to drop regardless of the converter slip. Which throws a wrench into everything- why can't the input shaft speed be compared to output shaft speed to determine when the shift is completed?

    For example in a manual trans car, you shift gears and the output shaft stays the same speed but the input shaft is much lower now, and being attached to the engine via clutch the engine speed is the same as input shaft.

    In an automatic the gear changes and the engine speed can stay up due to slippage- but the input shaft still needs to slow down because there is a continuous solid link between input and output shaft speeds. Either input needs to slow down or output needs to speed up (tires spin).

    So that leaves me wondering why the hell the converter slip is confusing the ECU at all? Are we thinking about this all wrong? I have to think about this some more. It could ultimately boil down to a programming issue, segment swap related, ECU gear ratio recognition, something like that

    >.. Hmm just thinking outloud. There is a setting I Never fooled with in the Transmission page which asks something about converter slip. I wonder if the converter slip setting is somehow overriding the input shaft comparison.
    Last edited by kingtal0n; 05-24-2022 at 07:50 PM.

  12. #32
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    Mine does not have the iss, however, I suspect that is why we don?t see this issue in gen 4 (07+) stuff

  13. #33
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    Well my 4l80e definetely has the input shaft speed sensor and when my shit shifts from 3-4 I get the incorrect time of latest shift bug and I assume the wrong torque management application as well (i dont use tqmgmnt for 3-4 enough to see it though)

    I wish this stuff was real-time tuning so we can adjust while driving but because you have to stop and re-upload I am just sooo too lazy to keep trying different things when it runs fine the way it is.

    In any case like anything else, dont give up, Eventually we figure it out

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverBullet6.0 View Post
    KR Recovery rate is 4x stock values. Shift pressure really shouldn't have any effect on this issue. My best guess is that due to the high stall torque converter, the pcm thinks the transmission is slipping on the shifts since rpm's aren't dropping significantly
    I've never seen a 2006 model 1/2 ton Silverado with the Normal torque reduction table populated. Typically it is simply zero'd throughout the table. Did you enter the values into your table? The Performance model table is typically populated with normal TM values. I'm pretty sure I tested it on my 2006 Silverado years ago and determined that the normal table didn't work...but can't recall the details.

    Regardless, just keep the shift time low...around 0.200s like Alvin indicated, then go to the Engine tab and Click on TM, then reduce the Spark Retard vs torque reduction table by 50%.

  15. #35
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    Yes, I populated the normal torque management table, as I want it active

  16. #36
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    If you want to keep going down the rabbit hole. The two links for P59 xdfs I posted earlier in this thread have a table "RPM drop ratios". If you search google or directly on the EFI forums for "D1111 RPM drop ratios" a user posted the definition parameters for this table for 2 OS's. In the post they stated the table helped correctly calibrate high stall converters and fix torque management issues. Related or not I am not sure and until I can find a similar table in a T42 I have no means to test it. I have not seen it defined in HPT anywhere though. There are other tables in those xdfs that seem like they could be related, but I really do not know. The RPM drop ratio table just caught my eye.
    Last edited by eXo3901; 05-25-2022 at 08:14 AM. Reason: iphone

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by eXo3901 View Post
    If you want to keep going down the rabbit hole. The two links for P59 xdfs I posted earlier in this thread have a table ?RPM drop ratios?. If you search google or directly on the EFI forums for ?D1111 RPM drop ratios? a user posted the definition parameters for this table for 2 OS?s. In the post they stated the table helped correctly calibrate high stall converters and fix torque management issues. Related or not I am not sure and until I can find a similar table in a T42 I have no means to test it. I have not seen it defined in HPT anywhere though. There are other tables in those xdfs that seem like they could be related, but I really do not know. The RPM drop ratio table just caught my eye.
    Man. That sounds like it?d be the ticket. Excuse my ignorance, but I?ve never messed with XDF files before. My experience is pretty much just whatever hptuners, Holley or efilive has in their software(s). I assume I?ll need a different program/software to edit the XDF files?

    I?m googling that ?d1111 rpm drop ratios? right now. I see that?s something the efilive guys are doing. I haven?t used my efilive in years, not even entirely sure where my flashscanv2 is. But if that?s a viable fix, it may be worth dusting of old hardware and learning how to use those .cax files. I wonder if forwarding those to HPT support would result in them adding the table. Not necessarily asking someone else to do the legwork for me, just save time if someone smarter than me could do it really simply and quick.
    Last edited by SilverBullet6.0; 05-25-2022 at 08:15 AM.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhoagland View Post
    Quick question
    Have you verified actual line pressure with a mechanical gauge lately?

    Also a few of the WOT shifts I looked ay were off from the Tune
    1-2
    WOT RPM 5600 in your Tune - in the log it doesn't shift until 6400
    WOT Shift Speed 39 MPH in your Tune - it was at 49 for the shift
    2-3
    WOT RPM 5200 Tune - Log was 6300
    WOT Shift Speed 70 MPH - Log was 91

    So while your happy with TM at WOT it isn't really doing what iys being asked to do
    Just for reference for anyone else reading this thread, or hypothesizing. Here?s my line pressure, and I currently have edited the ?shift pressure? tables to essentially be ?all-in? by 360ft lbs of torque.

    Pressure in Park at 2000rpm
    87psi
    0.9A 93psi
    0.8A 123psi
    0.7A 151psi
    0.6A 175psi
    0.5A 193psi
    0.4A 209psi
    0.3A 220psi
    0.2A 229psi
    0.1A 235psi
    0.0A 235psi

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverBullet6.0 View Post
    Just for reference for anyone else reading this thread, or hypothesizing. Here?s my line pressure, and I currently have edited the ?shift pressure? tables to essentially be ?all-in? by 360ft lbs of torque.

    Pressure in Park at 2000rpm
    87psi
    0.9A 93psi
    0.8A 123psi
    0.7A 151psi
    0.6A 175psi
    0.5A 193psi
    0.4A 209psi
    0.3A 220psi
    0.2A 229psi
    0.1A 235psi
    0.0A 235psi
    Thanks for posting!!
    Keep us updated if you find anything, especially for the future... Nothing worse than finding a thread with your exact issues that never has an end solution, even if it "I went a different direction"...

    Interesting on the other tables on different platforms...
    I thought I've seen in other threads that if you could give "definitions" to support often times they can add the tables.
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  20. #40
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    I wonder if we could achieve the same result using user defined paranmters.