HELP! "stock" CTSV lots of KR and SLOW!

[happysem]

Lots of info coming, trying to be as thorough as possible here so bear with me...TLDR at the bottom.
Definitely a noob tuner as well, but I'm just trying to get to stock right now.

2009 CTSV manual - new to me, supposed to be stock.
Seemed pretty decent when I drove it for the first week or so, I've driven 2 other stock/basically stock CTSV's and it felt very similar.
Stock airbox, filter, stock mufflers, but has like 1.5" holes drilled at the rear axle where you would put a cutout, sounds decent actually.

It feels like a normal stock car, driving like an old person, but a slight "pulsing" in power throughout the RPM WOT, and very flat feeling at like 25% throttle.
Went to do some testing, because I can't leave anything alone, and while I was testing I noticed it was getting a ton of KR, like up to 12* in some cases!
See tune "V original tune"
Bad side note - I have been beating on the car for about a week now, 6700-6900 WOT shifts cause I didn't know it wasn't stock and it felt decent...whoops!

So then I went back to the house and looked up a stock 09 V manual tune on the repository and noticed that my car was somewhat tuned, but not a whole lot was done.
Also looked up a 2010 V manual, and a ZL1 manual, but they're all a little different, so I'm not 100% on what I should have in my stock file - went with best judgement.
Went on another run but didn't save the log, basically just as bad, still lots of KR, I think it was like 8* now.
Makes no sense that its got that much knock on a stock tune with 93 octane...

Decided to do some basic maintenance, pulled a plug and it had TR6 gapped at like .042, has newer looking MSD wires.
Put in NGK TR7IX, gapped at like .033 now based on what I saw online for a stock car, seemed like most people said .030-035
Also pulled valve covers to make sure I didn't break anything in my high RPM shifts, all looks and feels normal, but I didn't pull pushrods out.

Next day...
I tried to be somewhat consistent in my runs, everything is with a minor cool down while I looked at logs and played with the tune, then a 3rd gear pull...may have to scroll a bit to find the WOT, sorry.
I know my IAT2's are a little high, I plan to flush and burp the supercharger coolant tomorrow, along with checking out those single digit misfires.
Went back out and got a log, car felt just ok.
See log "Log 1, 3rd gear pull..."
Still getting lots of KR, so I googled stock V/LSA timing, and seems like most people said 18-24* so I shot for that range and started tuning.


After a few runs, trying to get rid of the KR, I ended up taking out around 10* out of it, and doing some minor PE tuning to hope rule out any fueling issues (I have a wideband in another car, just not in the V yet)
Still has some KR (I've read that some is ok on stockish stuff), running around 20* throughout the run. Definitely felt slower to me, and still some minor pulsing throughout the RPM range.
See log "Log 2, v newest tune..."
See tune "New stock V tune, version 4"

Then for fun, I loaded up the original tune into the car to see how it felt.
See log "Log 3 - original tune..."
Had less KR with the new plugs but still getting a lot...also its asking for 31.5*!!! WTF! That's way too high right???
Car felt "normal" to me, still some slight pulsing in the power but feels like I think a stock V would pull.


I'm starting to wonder if more is done to this car and it was returned to stock or what...
The only other weird things I've found so far are 2 header bolts were missing, but turned out they were broken off when I tried to put another one in. Front driver and rear passenger. Don't think it had headers at one point, but kinda weird.
It also has the front brake duct pulled out on the driver side for a fender well intake, but the intake on the car is totally stock.


I also did some comparative analysis on the logs where I ran the same speed over the few days, about 42-70mph, and timed the differences based on the tunes.
IAT's were only like 4* difference
Boost calculated by barometric minus MAP is 8.6psi, so that should be in line with stock

When the car was how I picked it up, TR6 plugs, original tune, lots of KR, "Log 1", it took 7.578 seconds to go 42-90mph in 3rd
When I ran the car with the same original tune, TR7IX plugs, less KR but still quite a bit "Log 2", it took 6.245 seconds to go 42-90mph in 3rd

When I put the stock tune in, with my adjustments to try to get it to stop showing KR, "Log 3", I had to compare a slightly different speed range to the above runs.
Log 3, 42-70mph, 4.349 seconds.
Comparatively, Log 2 did that in 3.539 seconds.
The car is considerably slower! I also have VCM scanner measuring engine torque, I'm sure this isn't a correct number...but it says there's like 45ftlb difference between these runs, backing up that its slower/makes less power as I felt.

Bottom line...TLDR
WHY is my car so SLOW on what I believe should be stock timing (22ish?) my slowest log
Why does the car pull like a normal V on nearly 32* of timing WOT and get a bunch of KR? I don't wanna blow this heap up.

I should have logged injector duty cycle, so I'll add that to the list.
Tomorrow I'll check plugs/wires again for those single digit misfires
Coolant flush for IAT2 temps
I'll work on getting my wideband out of my other car and put on this one so I can check that side.

Only conspiracy theory I have is maybe the car was ran with E85 or something but totally stock otherwise and that's why the original tune has so much timing?

Any thoughts are greatly appreciated! I'm super frustrated with the car

[blindsquirrel]

Fuel pump is gone.

Looks like someone in the past tried to richen it up, that's why the trims are pulling so much fuel at light throttle. But on power the O2s go dead lean. Put a manual fuel pressure gauge on it. I bet it drops like a rock under load, even during throttle snaps in neutral.

[happysem]

Oh wow I hadn't even considered anything like that and I wouldn't have known to look for that...thanks! I will investigate and update!

EDIT: I know you can tune the FSCM separately for 1 credit...should I pull a file and verify that nothing was messed with in there first?

[dhoagland]

Oh wow I hadn't even considered anything like that and I wouldn't have known to look for that...thanks! I will investigate and update!

EDIT: I know you can tune the FSCM separately for 1 credit...should I pull a file and verify that nothing was messed with in there first?

I don't think its costs anything to read it, then compare to a known good stock file...
But I think I would get PSI reading at the rail first

EDIT
Looks like I'm wrong on the free read...

[dhoagland]

Oh wow I hadn't even considered anything like that and I wouldn't have known to look for that...thanks! I will investigate and update!

EDIT: I know you can tune the FSCM separately for 1 credit...should I pull a file and verify that nothing was messed with in there first?

Definitely check with manual gauge first, Assuming it will be low..

Then if you can log Desired vs Actual and it calls for 58 you only show 35 that would lead me to believe the FPCM is doing its job..

[happysem]

Here's a pull with the Original/Initial tune on the car when I received it with FSCM.

I'm comparing it with the Stock V tune I pulled off the repository.
I assume the "Fuel Sys" tab at the top is all the FSCM stuff, looks like nothing was messed with.

Figured out the View Comparison Log function, pretty useful.
Summary of changes;
PE
RPM Cutoff/DFCO
Spark Adv/Ret
Torque Management completely disabled it looks like
SC torque management, boost limit spark/fuel cut/etc, IAT boost, TPS, boost disable and boost control
Misfire SCD mode event time?
DTC master list
CAGS disable
Fans
Speedo limits
Looks like a few codes are turned off as well under Fuel Sys --> DTCs, P0562/P0563/U0140. But I don't think I can turn those back on unless I spend another credit?

I'll work on getting a fuel pressure gauge and logging pressure next.

Thanks for the help dudes!

[dhoagland]

Once you license the ECM and FSCM you can tune them forever without spending additional credits...

[happysem]

Update, took the car to autozone and borrowed their fuel pressure tester, confirms its what the computer sees.

Here's a log on the original tune that came with the car as I drove there, no WOT as it was still warming up. Don't mind ambient temp on any of these. Its 70F out.
See log "V Original tune drive to autozone"
See tune "V Original tune"
I don't fully know what I'm looking at, but it did have a lot of low O2 numbers compared to my bolt on cam LS2 car.
Looks like it was commanding and getting 36-37 psi, which I think is normal for an 09 V?

Then I hooked up the mech gauge, and free revved in the parking lot and checked it all out. Mech gauge same as HPT shows.
See log "Fuel pressure rev test..."
Looks like it is the same, about 36-37 at idle, then rev is up to 60 desired, and one time it hit 70 actual with 60 requested.


Then I decided to load my stock tune with timing adjustments to get it down to low 20*s and drive home. I did get a quick chance to go WOT.
See tune "New Stock V Tune, version 4"
See log "V new stock tune, drive home..."
Now it has 60psi requested/actual at idle at the start, rev 60-70, but then it dies down to about 43 while driving, then 60 when I went WOT. Finishing with 40-45 on the drive home.
Car felt slow again, but no KR and 22-24* WOT.

This seems like the fuel pump stuff is ok?
Although, I logged fuel pump primary and secondary on/off, and secondary never turns on.
Stock they should turn on when WOT I think? Not really sure here.

Thanks again everyone...kinda stuck now though.

[dhoagland]

I'm not a CTSV guy, You mention secondary pump not coming on...

Not sure where fuel PSI sensor is located, but if its in the pump maybe you have a pinched line that would not show up in a parking lot throttle snap test with a mechanical gauge in the rail (low flow short term situation)

Look at this in your log (blue line down scan)...
You are on it, so you should be in PE. Yet your narrow bands show lean. In my Camaro when I hit WOT/PE my narrow bands peg high.

You seem lean
You did mention broken header bolt?

[dhoagland]

Random log from my 2011 Camaro

[blindsquirrel]

Which tune file is the one in the car right now? The one that was in the car when you got it just confuses things, as I suspect that it was 'tuned' while it had other problems.

[dhoagland]

Fuel pump is gone.

Looks like someone in the past tried to richen it up, that's why the trims are pulling so much fuel at light throttle. But on power the O2s go dead lean. Put a manual fuel pressure gauge on it. I bet it drops like a rock under load, even during throttle snaps in neutral.

Didn't realize he already pointed this out

[blindsquirrel]

I made this last night, didn't get around to posting it.

screenshot.08-05-2022 01.05.15.png

It's commanding 1.28 in PE when this happens, so something is not putting fuel into the engine. The things that could cause that are relatively few.

[happysem]

Yea sorry I think its a little confusing, I've been going back and forth between the tunes to try to figure out what is going on with the thing.

as Dhoagland mentioned, I'm guessing its lean, on both tunes.

I'm going to work on getting the wideband in the car and see what's actually coming out of it in the next day or so. Thanks so much for all the responses.


I'm not super familiar with the V's yet, but I believe both pumps (primary/secondary) are tied together in one unit in the tank. Can I pull a fuse on the secondary/aux pump and see if it makes a difference or not? Maybe that one is dead.

[blindsquirrel]

If it's mechanically stock, you need to go back to a stock tune file at least until this is diagnosed.

[happysem]

Appears to be mechanically stock! I'll go back to a hopefully stock tune that I downloaded from the repository to mirror.

[GHuggins]

It's either pump, injectors or restriction such as a kinked line. You just don't have fuel flow. Nothing tune related as long as the fpcm wasn't changed for some reason. The fscm also won't typically show any changes made to it, but with as little as was changed in that original tune it's unlikely anything was touched in the fscm.

[happysem]

It's either pump, injectors or restriction such as a kinked line. You just don't have fuel flow. Nothing tune related as long as the fpcm wasn't changed for some reason. The fscm also won't typically show any changes made to it, but with as little as was changed in that original tune it's unlikely anything was touched in the fscm.

Trying to get my nomenclature straight...

FPCM is the actual module/controller thing, and FSCM is the "Fuel Sys" tab in HPT, correct?

I noticed nothing in the HPT Fuel Sys section, but you're saying the actual FPCM could have been changed for whatever reason?

I'll start with fuel pump and line check, have notes to look at the harness areas where a BAP could/would have been installed if this car was put back to stock before I got it.
Is there any good way to check injectors? Any other PIDs I can monitor to see if one or many aren't firing as they should?

[happysem]

Minor update, pulled up seats, no access panel, and no proof of swapping or adding in a BAP or anything so I don't think its been messed with much.
However, I pulled the rear fuse block out, tried swapping the relays around to see if that changed anything...the trunk release and fuel pump are the same so I swapped those.

Then the car wouldn't start, no fuel pump prime.
Swapped back, still nothing.
Slightly moved the rear fuse block and left it hanging, starts up as it always has.
So not sure if its related to my fueling problem, but there's some sort of intermittent connection back there. I think I've read about the bolt through the fuse block being kind of an issue - but nothing obviously wrong.

Second thing, is there a list of DTC's that are supposed to be turned on in HPT under engine diag? Obviously all of them shouldn't be turned on, like 4x4 codes...but there were some that I thought should be turned on, that are off...

I googled most of the ones I thought might have to do with my problem and found the following codes turned off. I enabled the ones that came up when I searched "CTSV [code]" and found threads on problems - I'll see if anything changes or they turn the CEL on.
These were turned off, and I put them back on;

P0069 MAP barometric pressure correlation
P0231/2 fuel pump circuit low/high
P0562/3 sys voltage

P0627/8/9 (all have to do with fuel pump control circuit...) couldn't find any threads online, not sure if this is normally on or not
P2632/6 (fuel pump B circuit) same as above, didn't find info

[blindsquirrel]

Why can you not just copy all differences from a stock M6 file with the same OS? Would take about 3 clicks and 15 seconds.