Warm slip tables

[reubone]

Hello all,
I am having a hard time nailing this issue down. What is happening is the tcc is slipping on the 3-4 shift but only when the trans temp is over 150*. Before then the tcc duty cycle sticks to 99%( even at steady state cruise) and the 3-4 shift is firm with very little tcc slip if any. Over this temp the tcc duty cycle starts to creep lower and lower until the tcc starts to slip. I am thinking that there is a table to control this that I cannot see or we do not have access to. An tips? Thanx

[reubone]

22-05-12 17-25-34.hpl22-05-12 17-12-04.hpl

THese are two data logs that demonstrate my issue. One is taken when the trans temps are below 150. the other is taken after the trans is over 160. The thing to compare is the TCC duty cylce activity.
Screenshot (20).png

This is my TCC duty cycle table in the tune file

[kingtal0n]

I Recommend:
Don't let it shift with the TCC Locked, turn off shift lock
I would not enable TCC in 3rd gear either
---------------
Two things to consider here
first is, the trans line pressure is the holding pressure for TCC, not the % table
Therefore it sounds like you need more line pressure for the TCC to hold in general
There are several settings under TCC control which add to line pressure when TCC is enabled


Second, Only a triple lockup converter clutch is generally considered 'safe' to keep locked during shifts and under load.

Therefore, $.02
1. add line pressure for TCC when hot
2. Dont lock in 3rd
3. Don't keep it locked during shifts

also
-You would need a trans pressure gauge 0-300psi to tell whether line pressure is 'too high' or 'too low' in general
In other words, if the converter clutch is toasted or getting toasted (ruined) you would be able to tell because it will slip when trans line pressure is very high.
But if you don't know the trans line pressure, you can't tell when the TCC is slipping whether its because the clutch is roasted or the trans pressure is low for some reason (could be internal leakage or blockage or aged etc...)

I can't look at logs my info is based on general tuning not from your logs

[reubone]

Finally somebody weighs in! Thank you for your insight. Unfortunately without seeing the data, your not seeing the issue at hand. The issue is control over the tcc duty cycle once fluid temp climb past 150*. When the temps is cooler than this, the tcc duty cycle remains at 99% just as expected with the table configuration in post 2. Once fluid temps climb above 150, things change. The tcc duty cycle falls lower and lower as temps climb higher until lock up engagement becomes slow and lazy. It will even fluctuate up and down to allow slip in the 0-100 rpm range while steady cruising. You can hear the engine rise and fall with the slip. You can track the tcc duty cycle allowing this slip. Again this only happens when the fluid temp is above 150*. All I want to do is limit the duty cycle to 99% only even when the fluid temps climb above 150*. My current tables do not do this.

[kingtal0n]

Okay well firstly, don't let it slip anymore. Fix the issue before you drive more because a little TCC slip is all it takes to wreck the converter clutch.

There may be something in your file causing the drop in TCC duty. I don't know what it is hopefully somebody will help. I can't open files on this computer to even look but I wouldn't even be sure where to look I've never heard of this issue before anyways and I don't recall any particular setting other than what you see in the TCC windows.

Perhaps your file is corrupt inside the ECU. Did you recently perform a write entire and have this issue? OR did you try a new file with write entire? Or perhaps the file is wrong for the ECU. All kinds of stuff can happen like that with these OEM computers.

I think you need to post your tune files to get help, recent versions, previous and new current versions plox
list the computer's "number" and name, the OS, everything you can tell these guys, somebody probably can help

[reubone]

"don't let it slip anymore" -kingtal0n

Sage advise. I agree. This is precisely the outcome I hope to achieve. You may be onto something with the corrupt file or an OS issue.
6 Trans issues 2.hpt
This is my current trans tune. I'm hoping that it is a hidden table on the 99 os that causes this. Perhaps I can use a file from an 02 p01 and this issue goes away. My thinking was that surely someone else has seen this before. Or maybe someone with a similar tune set up could data log their truck to see if there are similarities at temperature.

[kingtal0n]

WHile you wait on someone else to help I have a question that might shed insight. When the issue occurs have you tried commanding TCC PWM via the scanner? If the Scanner can control the PWM TCC or not will be a major clue to the issue

[reubone]

Good question! I had not thought to do that. Of course I have used that feature before but never as an experiment to test the vcm control on the tcc solenoid at the problematic temperatures. My gut says it will work fine to lock the tcc at 99 or 100% but who knows. I will test tonight if I can, Tomorrow if I cannot.

[kingtal0n]

I Was looking in my file (it might be similar to yours or the way yours works) And there are steady state adapt counters for TCC slip. I always turn the adaption off because the ecu can learn "BAD" Behaviors, ESPECIALLY if you are using aftermarket converter components. So I just wonder if maybe this is your issue, if you left the adaption algorithms enabled it could very well have down adapted the TCC apply rate or whatever its called. I would disable that if you have it on (Adapt: Disabled)

Next to the right of that there are several boxes, "CLutch gain", "offsets", "Offset (TCC)", etc... You might need to add some pressure to an offset if your adapt isnt the issue.

Another thing you might have to do is reset the learned 'adaption' values, I dont know if simply disabling it is enough. It probably is but I never assume anything

[reubone]

22-05-17 12-59-11.hpl22-05-17 12-04-48.hpl

These are some more data logs that illustrate the drop in duty cycle as well as the results of vcm controls locking the tcc. My OS does not have the same tables as yours for Tcc adapt and no drop down switch to disable them either.
Screenshot (21).png
Slip in 3rd under ECM control
Screenshot (22).png
Slip during 3-4 shift under ECM control
Screenshot (23).png
Vcm control tcc lock up no slip
Screenshot (24).png
Slip under throttle Ecm control
Screenshot (25).png
Vcm control under throttle no slip

[kingtal0n]

The shift pressure adaption algorithm seems/may be tied to the TCC memory. The drop down box for mine is for ALL adaptions. Just turn off everything that says adapt.

At this point first I would do a full reset of the ECM. Both manually using the scanner (If it can do it that way) and physically by unplugged it or whatever it takes.
Turn off all adaptions.
Next I would perform a read entire to see if the tables for TCC still say what you think they say (it might pull 'actual' data from the tcc table)
Then, I would adjust the TCC commanded values slightly. Change those 100's to 99 or 98%. And change the "low" table to like 95%. Keep the numbers separated between the two tables by at least 2%.
Then, Write entire on that.

And see what happens. IF it still immediatelly commands a low TCC% PWM The next thing would be,
A. open every single menu one at a time in the Transmission page to see if you missed some settings. You prol already did but fwiw
B. Try a different OS or start from scratch using another or original file.

These are my 'knee jerk' responses to this type of issue (for any vehicle, any computer)

Somebody else with more experience using your particular OS Or computer/details may know something specific to help or some other thing we are unaware of.

[reubone]

Seems your the only one interested in this saga but I am grateful for the exchange of ideas. So we had the same idea of changing the tcc command values around to no effect. Same issues arose once fluid temp rose above 150. So i bit the bullet and wrote entire an os from a 2002 Silverado. Presto! now the tcc duty cycle follows the command table exactly. I also have access to the adapt tables that you have mentioned previously. Now the only issue i am having is the upshift torque management. It says engaged for a second even after the shift has completed. Ive tried going through the tq management tables both for engine and trans....no effect. Went through the abuse mode settings...no effect. It appears that the trans has lost the ability to track when a shift has finished correctly as the time of last shift counter is really high. Like 1.6 seconds. The only thing that gets this to stop is turning off up shift tq management and I aint' doing that. What you reckon that is?Screenshot (26).png

[kingtal0n]

Thanks, I Really like learning, and teaching, and helping people. I stop all the time to help anyone broken down. I carry extra battery, cables, oil, etc... I've poured a fair share of oil into broken down engines boiling over chugging around city streets. A couple weeks ago I flagged down an older woman whos car was making the death sounds, I could just tell it was about to go a bad way. The engine was so hot, I knew from experience to stand wayyyy back. I told her stand back, more,, more,, no trust me more than that. Shes like wtf and stands wayyyy back. Then I dribbled a LITTLE bit of water into the empty radiator and ran away from it like it was a lit fuse. About 30 seconds passed and suddenly a gushing sprout of steaming boiling hot water came rushing out of the rad along with all kinds of engine oil mixed in. The rad had more oil in it than water. The engine was empty from oil. I wonder how the oil got into the rad to this day? After repeatedly adding tiny bits of water, it took like an hour to cool that thing off, it would keep gushing the water right back out like a pot on the stove but worse because it would build pressure deep first. It finally calmed down and I full with water and oil and it drove away like nothing happened. ANyways.


As you saw in
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...agement-Issues

And mine does the same thing on the 3-4 shift. Its like a high stall converter confuses the ECU and delays the shift recognition.

I don't have an issue 1-2 or 2-3 just 3-4 shift. I am using 2800 stall.

Its interesting your original file didn't have this issue. Very interesting. I wonder if it has to do with the gear ratio of the transmission, did you select "4l80e" or "4l60e" In some drop down menu? Does anywhere say what gear ratio each gear is? There is an interesting table under 'shift light' or something in the general area that may hold some clues, as it asks for gear ratios. I never tried it yet because I don't really need to fix this issue for 3-4 shifting but now to help other people I am wondering about an experiment.


Another thing I forgot to mention as a 'work around' for the tcc issue. You can manually command 100% PWM to the TCC by using a simple toggle switch with DC current. full 5v or 12v DC current is the same thing as a 100% PWM apply (the TCC probably takes 12v but I don't assume that, find ut first), so that would temporarily command your full TCC no matter what the ECU is telling it to do. Just something to consider.

For example say you need the torque management back and forced to go back to the old shitty file. You could develop a small circuit, say a capacitor and 555 timer or an arduino microcontroller to take the 20% or 50% Input PWM and output a full 99% to 100% DC to the TCC to get full lockup even with the ECU outputting only 50% pwm. Just something to consider.

[reubone]

For example say you need the torque management back and forced to go back to the old shitty file. You could develop a small circuit, say a capacitor and 555 timer or an arduino microcontroller to take the 20% or 50% Input PWM and output a full 99% to 100% DC to the TCC to get full lockup even with the ECU outputting only 50% pwm. Just something to consider.[/QUOTE]

Slow down there hotrod, no need for that kind of language. This is a public forum. I dont need no dipthong therums or slow transitive circuits or whatever you just said to tie my shoes in the morning. I dont know about you but thems fisticuff double throw down utterances there.

Ok ok I've had my fun. I found this discrepancy with the shift light gear ratio deal.
Screenshot (27).png
Screenshot (29).png
But the trans gear ratios were the same. Ill bet its a sensor calibration that we cannot see. Like an input shaft speed sensor or something like that. I wonder if the year model difference between the os and the transmission itself could be the issue.

[kingtal0n]

Slow down there hotrod, no need for that kind of language. This is a public forum. I dont need no dipthong therums or slow transitive circuits or whatever you just said to tie my shoes in the morning. I dont know about you but thems fisticuff double throw down utterances there.

Ah, I Was just saying if you need we can probably come up with a circuit to change a low duty PWM into a 100% PWM using an arduino and I Can even send you arduino microcontroller for free. Its very low cost components and I get extras because I'm a TA at university and allowed to give away these components to freshmans interested in engineering. I'm a problem solver and basically go to any length to get the behaviors I desire.

Ok ok I've had my fun. I found this discrepancy with the shift light gear ratio deal.
Screenshot (27).png
Screenshot (29).png
But the trans gear ratios were the same. Ill bet its a sensor calibration that we cannot see. Like an input shaft speed sensor or something like that. I wonder if the year model difference between the os and the transmission itself could be the issue.

Yeah thats what I was thinking of, there was some weird ratios in that table for mine. My first is 2.54 and it says like 3.2 for some reason. It could be an oversight in the segment swap for the transmission maybe. Did you have to segment swap for your trans? I don't even know which transmission you are using. Maybe a segment swap from a different computer or OS or whatever would help?

[reubone]

Well i tried an os from a 2000 silverado and i got my tq management back.......... buuuut the tcc slip was worse than ever at temperature. So i found another 2000 os that I can seg swap in a different trans os. Going to try that this evening.

[reubone]

Ya know the more i think about this issue, the more I come to believe that I could fix the issue by just keeping the trans cold.

[kingtal0n]

Or at least fooling the ecu into thinking the trans is cold.

I never checked but,
If its like an IAT sensor, more resistance = colder temps

IF SO you can easily install a $0.25 variable resistor to the transmission temp sensor wire and adjust the temp read by the ecu in real time

I have said variable resistor on my IAT to adjust colder/hotter depending on what I want, I have the iat tables fine tuned so I can add extra fuel and timing by turning the dial anytime I wish

ANd keep in mind for the time being you can use a simple DC toggle switch to apply 100% TCC whenever you flip the switch. So you can drive the vehicle without worry at least for now

[reubone]

I might just do that or drop the valve body and block off the pwm for the tcc. Problem is is that I really should go ahead and put a shift kit in while Im in there. No funds for that so the switch is looking like my best option. Any of the OS's and seg swaps I have tried have all come with compromises somewhere. I really just want to go back to my original and either add a switch or shift kit. I still bet you that there is a table that could be added for this control. Thank you for your help

[kingtal0n]

If its a 4l60 or 4l80 its very typical to block off the PWM for TCC because nobody ever uses it anyways, no point, just slips your expensive shit

And if its a 4l80 you dont need a shift kit, when I rebuilt my 80e there are some simple steps to follow that give you a shift kit without actually buying a shift kit, internal dual feed, separator plate mods, its very easy