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Thread: narrowband tuning

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    narrowband tuning

    would anyone care to remind me the process on how to tune with the narrowbands please? ive tried my hand with the wideband and have determined it cant be set up properly due to my fuel trims. going to get back int the ballprk then try to research setting up wideband and graphs.

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    thanks brother. I just found a previous thread and was about to post it but what you linked is much more user friendly, so I'm going with that! Also, do i need to disable DFCO, MAF, LTFT, & PE?
    Last edited by LS ROB; 05-16-2022 at 09:01 PM.

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    Senior Tuner kingtal0n's Avatar
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    I recommend against using narrowbands or fuel trims... Ever. It may wind up confusing you and keep you chasing your tail. The fuel trims probably vary based on temperature judging by what I've seen my logs do in open loop. In any case the target of a narrowband sensor (14.7:1) is never desirable.

    Tuning is usually done by disable the narrowbands and in open loop, populate table data like this


    Then simply adjust your VE table as needed

    Here are general targets for typical engines ("normal" compression ratios and such)

    00 - 19KPA: 13.3 to 13.8:1 *do not run lean a/f ratios here due to tip in concerns and situations which peg these pressure values after high load
    20 - 60KPA: 14.9 to 15.8:1 This is general idle/cruise range, run lean to save plugs and reduce carbon
    60 - 70KPA: 14.2 to 14.4:1 Gently accelerating up a hill or something
    70 - 80KPA: 13.3 to 14.1:1 Starting to demand torque so give it a little fuel for safety and torque
    80 - 90KPA: 12.6 to 13.2:1 Pretty much nearly wot so start thinking about wot ratios and full torque adding
    90-105KPA: 12.0 to 12.6:1 WOT for NA engine, I like 12.2 to 12.4 , if higher compression or 87 octane maybe 12.0 is warranted
    105-150KPA: 11.6 to 12.2:1 Up to 7psi of boost, should not be much richer than 11.8, those factory 2L and 3L JDM Engines run up near 12.5 here at 8.5:1 compresion
    155-215KPA: 10.9 to 11.5:1 For stock LS and JDM engines I prefer to see 10.8 to 11.0 at roughly 1 engine power doubling (215KPA) on the in-car wideband
    215-250KPA: 10.7 to 11.0:1 It is rare to move richer than 10.6:1 for traditional setups as we are discussing

    Notice we never really want a 14.7:1 ratio - narrowbands are kind of useless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingtal0n View Post
    I recommend against using narrowbands or fuel trims... Ever. It may wind up confusing you and keep you chasing your tail. The fuel trims probably vary based on temperature judging by what I've seen my logs do in open loop. In any case the target of a narrowband sensor (14.7:1) is never desirable.

    Tuning is usually done by disable the narrowbands and in open loop, populate table data like this


    Then simply adjust your VE table as needed

    Here are general targets for typical engines ("normal" compression ratios and such)

    00 - 19KPA: 13.3 to 13.8:1 *do not run lean a/f ratios here due to tip in concerns and situations which peg these pressure values after high load
    20 - 60KPA: 14.9 to 15.8:1 This is general idle/cruise range, run lean to save plugs and reduce carbon
    60 - 70KPA: 14.2 to 14.4:1 Gently accelerating up a hill or something
    70 - 80KPA: 13.3 to 14.1:1 Starting to demand torque so give it a little fuel for safety and torque
    80 - 90KPA: 12.6 to 13.2:1 Pretty much nearly wot so start thinking about wot ratios and full torque adding
    90-105KPA: 12.0 to 12.6:1 WOT for NA engine, I like 12.2 to 12.4 , if higher compression or 87 octane maybe 12.0 is warranted
    105-150KPA: 11.6 to 12.2:1 Up to 7psi of boost, should not be much richer than 11.8, those factory 2L and 3L JDM Engines run up near 12.5 here at 8.5:1 compresion
    155-215KPA: 10.9 to 11.5:1 For stock LS and JDM engines I prefer to see 10.8 to 11.0 at roughly 1 engine power doubling (215KPA) on the in-car wideband
    215-250KPA: 10.7 to 11.0:1 It is rare to move richer than 10.6:1 for traditional setups as we are discussing

    Notice we never really want a 14.7:1 ratio - narrowbands are kind of useless.
    I disagree if you are going to be running a CL tune. You should use the sensors that are going to be constantly making fueling corrections to tune vs. using a wideband that is no longer part of the equation once you go back into CL. With the a/f ratios you posted above the only way you are going to be running those targets is with an OL tune.

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    Tuning Addict blindsquirrel's Avatar
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    Hates the very concept of oxygen sensors, and posts in every O2-related thread to preach about how evil they are. Just ignore it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    Hates the very concept of oxygen sensors, and posts in every O2-related thread to preach about how evil they are. Just ignore it.
    LMAO...really? I don't get why you WOULDN'T want to use the NB sensors for part throttle tuning. I have with good success. Of course I have a wideband for WOT, but that's because my $70k ctsv didn't come with a wideband...lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgod1100 View Post
    LMAO...really? I don't get why you WOULDN'T want to use the NB sensors for part throttle tuning. I have with good success. Of course I have a wideband for WOT, but that's because my $70k ctsv didn't come with a wideband...lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PGA2B View Post
    Where is my like button???
    LOL...yeah I think this forum needs that option!

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    Senior Tuner kingtal0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgod1100 View Post
    I disagree if you are going to be running a CL tune. You should use the sensors that are going to be constantly making fueling corrections to tune vs. using a wideband that is no longer part of the equation once you go back into CL. With the a/f ratios you posted above the only way you are going to be running those targets is with an OL tune.
    Yeah thats my point. Why would a good tuner use closed loop narrowband at all? The only reason to need closed loop narrowbands is if you suck at tuning, don't know how to tune the engine fully, and need closed loop to make corrections for you all the time. To the wrong air fuel ratio- 14.7 is unwanted in all situations, never desirable.


    Why not learn to just tune the engine properly?


    The wideband does the same thing as a narrowband, it is far superior to a narrowband, it completely replaces the narrowband sensor in custom ECU installations.

    The wideband is an oxygen sensor and it can be used for closed loop just like a narrowband if needed in custom installations.

    When you buy a $3000 Haltech/AEM/PFC/Motec/MegasQ/whatever these days it comes with a WIDEBAND closed loop feedback. There is no narrowband.
    Narrowband is obsolete, its been removed from all closed loop modern ECU tuning strategies.

    It's like nobody on this forum has ever tuned an engine so they are fooled into thinking the OEM methodology of using narrowbands is "correct" when in reality NONE of the high performance 500-2500hp engines in the world using aftermarket custom ECU will even think of using a narrowband sensor, completely useless!!!

    Get good!



    Blind I still love you dw no matter how much you hate on me I will cherish your presence and our discussions

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingtal0n View Post
    Yeah thats my point. Why would a good tuner use closed loop narrowband at all? The only reason to need closed loop narrowbands is if you suck at tuning, don't know how to tune the engine fully, and need closed loop to make corrections for you all the time. To the wrong air fuel ratio- 14.7 is unwanted in all situations, never desirable.


    Why not learn to just tune the engine properly?


    The wideband does the same thing as a narrowband, it is far superior to a narrowband, it completely replaces the narrowband sensor in custom ECU installations.

    The wideband is an oxygen sensor and it can be used for closed loop just like a narrowband if needed in custom installations.

    When you buy a $3000 Haltech/AEM/PFC/Motec/MegasQ/whatever these days it comes with a WIDEBAND closed loop feedback. There is no narrowband.
    Narrowband is obsolete, its been removed from all closed loop modern ECU tuning strategies.

    It's like nobody on this forum has ever tuned an engine so they are fooled into thinking the OEM methodology of using narrowbands is "correct" when in reality NONE of the high performance 500-2500hp engines in the world using aftermarket custom ECU will even think of using a narrowband sensor, completely useless!!!

    Get good!



    Blind I still love you dw no matter how much you hate on me I will cherish your presence and our discussions
    I'm willing to bet most guys on here with a DD car are running a closed loop tune though...pretty sure you are talking RACE CARS considering you are referring to using a Haltech/AEM etc etc....I don't understand why you think you can't use narrowbands when tuning part throttle..i have tried tuning with BOTH my NBs and WB and couldn't tell a damn bit of difference at the end of the day. To each their own though

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgod1100 View Post
    I'm willing to bet most guys on here with a DD car are running a closed loop tune though...pretty sure you are talking RACE CARS considering you are referring to using a Haltech/AEM etc etc....I don't understand why you think you can't use narrowbands when tuning part throttle..i have tried tuning with BOTH my NBs and WB and couldn't tell a damn bit of difference at the end of the day. To each their own though
    I daily driver my cars since 2001 always open loop for 20+ years.
    I would not add a narrowband because the wideband sensor will replace the narrowband completely. Wideband can do anything a narrowband can do. Narrowband is obsolete.



    If the engine is fully tuned properly, it doesn't need the oxygen sensor anymore. The oxygen sensor is for tuning. Once you are finished tuning it basically does nothing.... Unless the tune isn't perfect in which case the closed loop can bring the tune back into line. This is for sheep to drive the car, not tuners. We tuners will FIX the issue by tuning. Normal people can't re-tune it themselves so they need the narrowband. Is it making sense?

    You are either a tuner in control of the tune, tuning the engine.
    Or you are a normal person who CAN'T tune the engine, have NO control over the tune, in which case you need the oxygen sensors to help you all the time.


    Its a logical sense, common sense thing to understand.


    Et Al;
    IF we wanted closed loop we would still use the wideband. There are several ways this can be done.
    One is to simply buy an Aftermarket ECU with full time closed loop wideband control.
    Again, no narrowbands are wanted or needed because the wideband replaces it completely.

    Another is using circuitry,

    heres an example arduino project of a wideband simulate narrowband output
    https://thedeltaecho.wordpress.com/2...p-afr-control/

    In this one they used the LC-1 directly
    https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...ow-Band-How-To

    But I absolutely will never use innovative wideband for anything ever again. Even the new versions are awful if you compare or are used to the AEM which responds much faster and even starts up faster.

    To be clear I do not recommend wasting the time to design a proper circuit and programming etc... Just run open loop. There are alot of small intricacies involved with attaching an external microcontroller to the ECU, as simple as it is in theory, you will need some electronics experience to know how to ground it properly, current flow direction matters, caps and resistors in the right places (some unexpected), it will likely need an isolation circuit to protect from voltage spikes which should include a transient voltage suppression inductor, and unintuitively placed diodes to provide voltage drops and return pathways for current outside of the main loop. I'm no expert myself but its like knowing enough to know you shouldn't do something to your own equipment, If you want it to be reliable and easy, just keep it simple.


    I get that my 25 years of tuning experience and hundreds of high power cars and daily drivers gives me a unique perspective on engine tuning unlike anything people are used to in this forum. I've used every kind of stand-alone even the ones I never used because I understand enough about computer and hardware to automatically know what things do without having seen or used them before. A PhD in mechanical engineering, background in control theory and 15 years of education also helps. I am not bragging only defending my position- if you can't get to the top of the mountain to get a clear wide view, you can either take the word of somebody standing there or try and climb yourself.

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    it doesnt matter which one i use; cause i cant seem to tune with either one. ive read some stickys and i made a few changes to my graphs, so im going to take another stab at it. it seems i get so close then overshoot and end up either too rich or too lean.

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    Senior Tuner kingtal0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LS ROB View Post
    it doesnt matter which one i use; cause i cant seem to tune with either one. ive read some stickys and i made a few changes to my graphs, so im going to take another stab at it. it seems i get so close then overshoot and end up either too rich or too lean.
    If you don't mind, I will guide you to some basics for tuning any engine.
    I've tuned every kind of 'old' engine and these rules apply to all engines in the world made from say 1970 to 2010.


    Before you can even begin thinking about tuning the engine mechanical and external features need to be verified and setup properly.
    1. The compression test should be performed and write the numbers down. Use a decimal. Use two different compression testers and average results as long as they are close.
    Never rent a tester.
    Purchase a high quality tester and learn how to maintain it (never leave it "full of air" always release the pressure before storage just like a torque wrench, never leave a torque wrench set to any value always release the spring before storage).


    2. The PCV system needs to be correct- a pcv valve on one valve cover feeding the intake manifold establishes a baseline airflow to the manifold which is part of the idle circuit and accounts for a portion of idle airflow. Exactly like in a carb application. I will post a picture for Idle/cruise circuit. Ask any questions this is very important.
    The other valve cover feeds from the intake tube, between air filter and throttle body (or turbo if you have a turbo). This is the OEM system to control oil leaks and oil quality, it must be done for reliability applications.

    For chevrolet engines, the Crankcase pressure should be 0.15" to 0.45" Hg at idle, and under WOT it needs to be at LEAST 0.5" Hg for benefits of PCV action, up to 2" to 3" Hg is considered 'performance' range to increase the mileage capability of the engine. You can test crankcase pressure using a 1-bar map sensor on the crankcase. Baseline 1-bar map sensor reading using a multimeter is generally around 4.34v at 100KPA barometric pressure. The idle/cruise for chevrolet should be 4.14v, which is about .2v less than baseline. During WOT you want to see around 3.98v indicating a 1" to 1.5" Hg pressure drop in the crankcase. But these can be set and verified later after tuning the engine up. Just be aware there are particular crankcase values for pressure you need to hit otherwise it will result with long term oil control issues, oil quality issues, it can eventually ruin the engine and cause oil leaking.


    3. Pressure test the intake manifold to ensure no leaking from any particular runners which will create air/fuel tuning variations from cyl to cyl. This is too often overlooked and assumed. If you have a turbo I have a different video for turbocharger pressure test you need to see. I just assume you are non turbo for some reason.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYZmZqn3-x0

    4. Install fresh, new, cheap copper spark plugs. Do not gap them at this time, leave the tips untouched they should already be .045" or something like that. Its fine for now. You will roughly tune the engine on cheap plugs, then install new cheap plugs and FINE tune the engine, and finally once the engine is fine tuned you will install a proper expensive iridium plug and gap the plug to your compression pressure (peak cyl pressure = desired plug gap) and dyno tune the engine then never touch them plugs again or even look at them.

    Don't ever try to tune on old used plugs, waste of time.

    5. Smell the oil if its old, does it smell like fuel? this is a general precaution if you flooded the engine at any point and the oil starts to smell like fuel swap it out immediately.
    You probably know that already but fwiw.

    6. Use a high quality air cleaner, don't worry about the flow rate for now. Once the engine is tuned you will measure post filter pressure drop (#2) and determine whether the air filter is correctly sized using 1-bar map sensor collected data. This is part of tuning and must be done for high reliability setups otherwise you will have oil leaking and oil blowing out issues later. all engines no matter what manufacturer must be tuned with respect to their crankcase pressure.


    I am not talking down to you, I am just covering all the bases before tuning can be done. This is an instructional post- I am math/science tutor and you never know when new people 'walk through the door' where they are in terms of mathematics or chemistry or whatever. So we have to cover the basics every time I see a new face. Sorry if its trivial for you.


    Now the engine has clean air, clean plugs, no leaking runners or gaskets, proper PCV flow, clean oil, it should be ready to tune.


    Tuning methodology:
    I am not going to write a book here. Just the basics. First for the OEM computer you will need to dial in the injector size correctly, or it will never be able to tune properly when airmass calculations are in play which reflect injector size for fueling equations regarding VE values. In other words the VE values correlate to airmass which the computer uses to calculate air/fuel ratio desired, and you should at first learn to tune based on desired air/fuel ratio values in power enrichment mode, to get your feet wet. Once you learn for a while the injector size table becomes a tuning tool just like anything else and you may want to deviate somewhat to make global adjustments, but this is advanced tuning topics and wont be covered now.

    You get the injector size and injector data mostly correct, that is the heart of OEM calculations for the VE table. It will make the VE values, "make sense" to some extent.
    There are a hundred other tables but that one is the most important for beginning to tune.


    Using a wideband, in open loop,
    Generate data like the picture I posted so logged wideband values are collected and averaged. Learn how to use the tools of the scanner to choose between average, minimum, maximum, and number of counts. Further learn how to use the filtering so you can filter out data when the throttle position is less than say 3%, or when the rate of change of MAP is positive and so forth. Most of learning how to tune is learning how to use the tools of datalogging. If you don't know how the logger functions to sort your data you will be handicapped when trying to tune.

    Once you have a log file showing all collected & averaged wideband data, use the a/f values I already posted and fall within those ranges at the KPA.
    Use the compare file feature to compare the previous tune with the one you are currently working on so you can see the incremental changes being made over time.
    Here is an example
    https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...l=1#post686802


    The great thing about open loop is you can shoot for average values and the natural wandering due to humidity, injector heating, heat soaking, electrical voltage fluctuations, injector driver resistance, etc... is averaged out to negligible effects.
    For example say you tuned today a specific cruise cell to 15.2:1 air fuel ratio.
    Tomorrow it is very humid and you will see 14.8:1
    The next day it is heat soaking and you will see 15.5:1

    The result? All of those values are acceptable. The engine is open loop, the a/f is wandering around +/- 0.5 to 1.0 a/f value and it doesn't matter as long as you stay leaner than 14.6:1 . Once you pass 14.6:1 you start to foul the plugs and carbon up the plugs, Even 14.7:1 will brown them up. This is why I avoid 14.7 ranges for cruise and idle. You really want to see 14.8 to 15.2 at idle/cruise for generic conditions.

    Get through this part and ask questions, Look at my file I posted in the thread for ideas.

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    Using a wideband, in open loop,
    Generate data like the picture I posted so logged wideband values are collected and averaged. Learn how to use the tools of the scanner to choose between average, minimum, maximum, and number of counts. Further learn how to use the filtering so you can filter out data when the throttle position is less than say 3%, or when the rate of change of MAP is positive and so forth. Most of learning how to tune is learning how to use the tools of datalogging. If you don't know how the logger functions to sort your data you will be handicapped when trying to tune.
    id say this is most of my problem.^^^

    i just need to learn the process of tuning. im not a read once and know it kinda guy, i learn best by hands on with some guidance. stuff like, this is what you disable to tune maf or disable that to tune vve. that would help me the most. i dont mind to do the legwork but i just gotta know what to enable/disable, if that makes sense. ive got things rolling now so we will see how it plays out in a few revisions. i appreciate you helping out. that kpa-afr chart will come in handy im sure. thank you.
    Last edited by LS ROB; 05-18-2022 at 09:54 PM.

  17. #17
    Senior Tuner kingtal0n's Avatar
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    One of these days I will make a video and explain how to tune engines, but right now I am deep in cancer research dissertation. In general its always the same process no matter what type of engine or computer, because the only really 3 things we are adjusting all the time is injector on-time, injector phase, and ignition timing. Almost everything else is a constant in the setup/config. If you boil it down to those 3 critical aspects of engine tuning it will jive with carb tuning where the only additional aspect is the injector phase to learn.

    If you can tune a carb you can tune EFI kind of thing. I always relate back to carbs because the engine is remarkably simple mechanical device which doesn't need an ECU or computer to run at all- it will make the idea of EFI tuning much more simply when you start to notice Injector pulse and ignition timing as the primary variables which need attendance and everything else is just background noise.

    From that point its just a matter of making sense of the tools you have for the ECU at your command.

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    o2tuning1.1.hplo2tuning1.2.hplo2tuning1.3.hplo2 tuning1.4.hplo2 tuning.hpt

    still having a yo-yo effect. i spent 4.5 hours driving around with what i feel is no progress. one log is rich, the other is lean. One thing i read was to reset LTFT with the scanner before logging, i tried that but not sure if it worked or not. when i clicked the button, nothing happened or changed. copy-paste- multiply % half is what ive been doing. interpolate-smooth-calculate-smooth calculate. suggestions welcome.

  19. #19
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    It sounds like you are still trying to tune an engine in closed loop.

    It's the most difficult thing to do in all of tuning land. The closed loop correction makes up for environmental factors.
    For example when you first start the engine the injectors and fuel is cold, they respond faster to current/voltage supplied.
    And hour later the fuel and injectors are hot, they have a completely different response to the current being supplied by the ECU driver.

    That means closed loop will correct slightly when cold, and more later when warmed up. It will throw an inconsistent wrench into your tuning efforts- do you want to make them happy when cold or hot? You will have two completely different resulting correction factors "fuel trims" and two completely different resulting fuel map demands and resulting air fuel ratios. And its impossible to tell how much the temperature of the injector changed or what the influence was, or how future environment changes will impact that haven't happened yet.

    The same goes for IAT. There is a behind the scenes global IAT adjustment which we cannot control and it moves the a/f ratio leaner as the IAT rises. At least in gen3 this is true. That again means the closed loop correction will bedifferent cold then more or less later when the global adjusts a/f ratio as temps rise. The fuel map can be tuned for cold, or hot situations, but not both. The closed loop will make up for both but it will show you completely different resulting memory trims as a result. There may also be bias to the coolant temp but I disable that because sometimes my coolant temp rises 10 or 20* and i dont want the ecu pulling a bunch of fuel for that either. The less over-correction the better and the ECU loves to over correct

    If you put the engine in open loop, you will be able to accurately estimate the a/f changes as the engine warms up. For example my a/f will climb from 15.2:1 at idle to 16.5at idle gradually just sitting in a drive through line. Then once I Leave and start driving it cools off and back to low 15's. If I Had a narrowband closed loop the fuel trims would be off the chart leans while sitting in the line and much less lean while driving. It will confuse novices that aren't away of the difference in closed corrections due to environmental variables.

  20. #20
    Senior Tuner kingtal0n's Avatar
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    This is how I do it, it might be too advanced for novices, but its the fastest and cleanest method with the littlest amount of overshoot.
    1. Make a chart like mine using wideband a/f ratios in open loop, only start logging once the engine is warmed up after 15 minutes so you don't log very cold values.

    2. sit down at the kitchen table and review the log. Go back and forth from log to VE map and make small corrections, nothing larger than + or - 1.0. use compare file feature to make the changes in each cell to keep track ofwhat you changed.

    3. your logged a/f ratios each session will then gradually drift towards correct values using VE map corrections

    finally you can re-enable closed loop and forget about it, done

    none of the tuning efforts in the VE table will work properly if the rest of the file isn't setup right. Things like injector size, short pulse adders, injector data/delay, ECT/IAT bias, injector phase EOIT, all of that needs to be set before you start tuning. Just like it needs new plugs and stuff.

    For example if you have the ECT bias active still the a/f will wildly swing anytime the Engine coolant temp changes