2019 Mustang 5.0 twin turbo VCT tuning but can't get OP

[engineermike]

I think you maybe need to learn more about why the mapped points exist and how they work.

[smokeshow]

How has nobody tried installing additional pressure sensors in the air path when boosting their engine? So many of these issues come directly from the naturally aspirated torque control inferring (correctly) that there is more torque than is being requested and compensating by closing the throttle or setting a fault. So many of these threads go round and round with these issues and MAP sensors are $30. The files posted in this thread have cals for inlet pressure sensors and MAP sensors. Worth a try...

[engineermike]

Smokeshow, I did.

[Zapo]

I think you maybe need to learn more about why the mapped points exist and how they work.

Your right, it seems possible that the table I was changing was not what what decides X cam timing, but what table to use when X cam timing occurs. But what decides what cam timing to use? When not in OP. I have played with OP cam timing on my 2014 supercharged coyote and that works as I imagined.

Mike I understand my level of knowledge on this is possibly low enough to make even explaining this difficult, so I will just keep pushing along, I am thankful for the input you have shared. Will turn this into post of me blogging my path slowly learning enough to make this work.

[engineermike]

When you said you copied the 6 mapped point strategy from Roush, you have to copy all of it…enabled points, snap lines, point locations, index arrays, distance tables, speed density/spark/torque, imrc settings, etc. also make sure your OP cam timing falls on the appropriate snap line.

[Grim5.0]

Your right, it seems possible that the table I was changing was not what what decides X cam timing, but what table to use when X cam timing occurs. But what decides what cam timing to use? When not in OP. I have played with OP cam timing on my 2014 supercharged coyote and that works as I imagined.

Mike I understand my level of knowledge on this is possibly low enough to make even explaining this difficult, so I will just keep pushing along, I am thankful for the input you have shared. Will turn this into post of me blogging my path slowly learning enough to make this work.

cam timing comes from DESIRED load. when your rt foot tells the ecu go from idle to 200ftlbs, the mapped points used are from the load that it has determined it needs to get to to satisfy the request for 200ftlbs. It travels through several MP based on the rest of the settings mike mentioned. timing/SD etc are all just part of that specific cam timings limits (mbt) or expected inferred readings (SD). think of it as 26 different full blown tunes with cam timing as the focal point.

smokeshow, unless you have a ford OS that connects or repurposes an unused input, the best most can do is calibrate some of those tables with an external sensor. And even then it depends on the OS to even used the table. would love to skip as much infered as these cars rely on.

[smokeshow]

Yeah, your mileage may vary...depends on the manufacturer, specific vehicle and down to the way the algorithm is built to enable the sensors. I've enabled an inlet pressure sensor before on software not meant for a blower. Had to dig out one extra cal with user defined parameters but the sensor coming online enabled the augmented throttle pressure delta logic and got rid of this very problem.

[veeefour]

cam timing comes from DESIRED load. when your rt foot tells the ecu go from idle to 200ftlbs, the mapped points used are from the load that it has determined it needs to get to to satisfy the request for 200ftlbs. It travels through several MP based on the rest of the settings mike mentioned. timing/SD etc are all just part of that specific cam timings limits (mbt) or expected inferred readings (SD). think of it as 26 different full blown tunes with cam timing as the focal point.

smokeshow, unless you have a ford OS that connects or repurposes an unused input, the best most can do is calibrate some of those tables with an external sensor. And even then it depends on the OS to even used the table. would love to skip as much infered as these cars rely on.

No?

Cam timing comes from MP, MP comes from IVO and EVC - nothing to do with Desired Load. Desired Load comes from Torque Model.

[engineermike]

Cam timing command comes from desired load -> commanded mapped point. Calibration data come from interpolation of mapped points based on actual cam timing. I really hate it that vcmeditor doesn’t distinguish between commanded vs measured mapped point.

[veeefour]

Cam timing command comes from desired load -> commanded mapped point. Calibration data come from interpolation of mapped points based on actual cam timing. I really hate it that vcmeditor doesn’t distinguish between commanded vs measured mapped point.

Cam timing is pre-defined, to specific MP - IVO and EVC being "bracketed" to MP. You can change it to whatever you want. You can have MP26 with IVO +33 and EVC-46 is you really want...

Now DESIRED LOAD is a max load number taken from torque model, if your torque model LOAD is extrapolated to 2 this is what max DESIRED LOAD would be.

Desired Load has nothing to do with CAM TIMING...

[Grim5.0]

desired determines which MP will be used (cam timing). all of the load dependent mp/cam setting tables are based on desired load.

but correct i was using terms loosely with cam timing/mp.

[veeefour]

desired determines which MP will be used (cam timing). all of the load dependent mp/cam setting tables are based on desired load.

but correct i was using terms loosely with cam timing/mp.

No, not really. Desired load can switch between 1 and 3 and correct MP will still be used, regardless of what Load number says.
I can go to OP with IVO 10 and EVC 15 and can have Desired Load requesting 2, I can have it requesting Load 3...still in OP
and still in the same MP's. VCT MODE schedule tables dictates the MP...

Desired Load is only a limiting factor...not sure where did you get that theory.

[Grim5.0]

?? and desired determines which vct mode you are in.. which determines which MP and cam timing.

[veeefour]

?? and desired determines which vct mode you are in.. which determines which MP and cam timing.

Not really, mapped point arrays determines that: optimum stability, best fuel economy, optimal stability, best drive-ability,optimum power etc.
Blending is determined by distance tables, you can run without best drive-ability for example if you want to.

You need to study how HDFX works, really nothing to do with desired load...

[Ruiner46]

Not really, mapped point arrays determines that: optimum stability, best fuel economy, optimal stability, best drive-ability,optimum power etc.
Blending is determined by distance tables, you can run without best drive-ability for example if you want to.

You need to study how HDFX works, really nothing to do with desired load...

Distance tables determine which mapped point you are in and the blending... as you said. And the rows used in the distance tables are load... so load/rpm determines which mapped point you are in.

[veeefour]

Distance tables determine which mapped point you are in and the blending... as you said. And the rows used in the distance tables are load... so load/rpm determines which mapped point you are in.

Sure, Distance Table row axis is per LOAD, per AIR LOAD not Desired Load...makes a difference of a lot.

Than on the other hand if you disable all VCT modes it will end up in optimum stability no matter what you do to the load...
This is called High Degree of Freedom Executive...if you read the Patent the only exception to that is Optimum Power.
This can be triggered regardless of everything...

More to add Emission Reduction and Optimum Stability are per ECT not per Load so...depending on application this can vary...

[murfie]

https://patents.google.com/patent/US6738706B2/en
What a mapped point is, and example of how it can be used to determine operating parameters.
Control is never perfect so snap to points and lines are used for operating parameters.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US6371066
This is the independent control patent. Not intake only, exhaust only, or dependent controls.
Cam timing control comes from driver demand and percent of available indicated torque demanded. Going to desired load that determines the mode index(arrays). Once that is known a desired intake valve closing(intake VCT) and desired overlap(exhaust VCT) can be determined(distances). Then a feedforward control loop can move the cams towards those desired positions.

[Zapo]

Going to desired load that determines the mode index(arrays). Once that is known a desired intake valve closing(intake VCT) and desired overlap(exhaust VCT) can be determined(distances). Then a feedforward control loop can move the cams towards those desired positions.

Help me define the terms used above in the context of the logs below at 7000 RPM WOT, with 100% MP14. please correct errors and help me fill in the blanks.

mode index (arrays) = VCT schedule in this case is "Best fuel economy"?
distances = Best fuel economy Distance table indicates "9" in all load values above 5000 RPM

So I go to VCT fuel economy Mapped Points and see "9" = "9"

QUESTION --> What does this distance table "9" refer to. How does it end up asking for MP 14? I don't see 14 assigned anywhere.

QUESTION --> Where does MP14 get its idea that there should be 6.1 deg of ex cam timing and .8 deg of intake timing at 7000 RPM. When in OP mode with MPOP referenced the OP IVO and EVC tables command actual cam timing in degrees. Where does MP14 get its data for cam timing from as the MP14 IVO =0 and EVC =15, and changing them 10 degrees does not change recorded cam timing in logs?

[engineermike]

I just took a quick 1 minute look at your tune and noticed that the only IMRC-open mapped points you have enabled are 14 and 21, and those have identical cam timing. The only mapped points it CAN choose are 14 or 21 and it had to pick one since they are defined to the same coordinate. That part is working exactly as you told it to. I suggest you read and learn more before you break something.

Edit: Its still in vct fuel economy mode at wot, so that part needs to be addressed. That said, it’s following the fuel economy distance table which sends it to a certain mapped point location (that is not mp14). But since that mapped point is disabled then it’s forced to use the only enabled point (14). Disabling a mapped point doesn’t prevent it from sending the cams to that location, but it does prevent it from using the calibration data associated with that point.

[engineermike]

In vct mode fuel economy its following the bottom (.7 load) row of the fuel economy distance table, which puts it between 9 and 10. Cross that over using the index array and you see it puts it between *commanded* mapped point 9 and 0 at wot. Look at the cam timing of mp9 and 0 and you see the cams are following exactly what they are being commanded to do.