ford falcon throttle errors (aus)

[Singleturbofairladyz]

would anyone be able to help out with my tune on my ford falcon barra?

recently installed another engine with higher compression over standard (factory gas engine 10:3:1 comp)
also fitted a factory intake manifold off a newer model NA FG falcon in the process of swapping the engine
i am using the standard BA throttle body (was running FG TB to start with) (DBW)
the car was a factory NA BA falcon that got boosted and i tuned with the stock NA ECU running 17psi happily until swapping these in

attached is log and tune of both when its NA and Turbo, NA tune is how it comes completely stock, the 2nd is my NA-T tune that was previously ran and worked well

gets major throttle errors and drops MAP pressure, tried multiple changes with not much luck
smoke tested it and cant find any leaks ect.
have tried multiple tables from newer model FG falcon with no success

if anyone could help out i would be very grateful as ive been trying to fix this problem for a month now!

attached is a log from when it was both NA and Turbo, NA tune is how they come stock, 2nd tune is my NA-Turbo tune which was previously ran and worked well


gassy FG intake FG turbo predicted ETC table & pedal.hplmy BA XT Stock as a rock.hptBA NA-T GAS motor ETC problem.hptgassy FG intake, NA MAP sensor, stock OG tune, 670cc dekas.hpl

[mstang_man]

would anyone be able to help out with my tune on my ford falcon barra?

recently installed another engine with higher compression over standard (factory gas engine 10:3:1 comp)
also fitted a factory intake manifold off a newer model NA FG falcon in the process of swapping the engine
i am using the standard BA throttle body (was running FG TB to start with) (DBW)
the car was a factory NA BA falcon that got boosted and i tuned with the stock NA ECU running 17psi happily until swapping these in

attached is log and tune of both when its NA and Turbo, NA tune is how it comes completely stock, the 2nd is my NA-T tune that was previously ran and worked well

gets major throttle errors and drops MAP pressure, tried multiple changes with not much luck
smoke tested it and cant find any leaks ect.
have tried multiple tables from newer model FG falcon with no success

if anyone could help out i would be very grateful as ive been trying to fix this problem for a month now!

attached is a log from when it was both NA and Turbo, NA tune is how they come stock, 2nd tune is my NA-Turbo tune which was previously ran and worked well


gassy FG intake FG turbo predicted ETC table & pedal.hplmy BA XT Stock as a rock.hptBA NA-T GAS motor ETC problem.hptgassy FG intake, NA MAP sensor, stock OG tune, 670cc dekas.hpl

AUSIE stuff , cool do you know the throttle body size is? i have attached what i show for the predictive throttle angle error. WHAT is the car actually doing? idle surge, stalling, ect.

[Singleturbofairladyz]

AUSIE stuff , cool do you know the throttle body size is? i have attached what i show for the predictive throttle angle error. WHAT is the car actually doing? idle surge, stalling, ect.

not exactly, from memory its 72 or 75mm, (stock TB that came on it, matching pedal, ecu and TB, it cuts throttle and just feels like its hitting a brick wall and not pulling anywhere, stops making power ect. rpms do increase slowly though, idles fine, it is making some weird intake noises like a sort of sputtering from inside the manifold when the throttle is cutting when up it ect.

can slowly rev it at 1/4 throttle when stationary and it revs up well, if you flatten it or punch the throttle quickly throttle errors apear and it lags very badly when revving
ive logged throttle errors and they never really match, it gets 40 degree + throttle errors even though throttle angle can be about 10 degrees out

how would i go about fixing throttle errors? from the research ive done theres a throttle body calculator in editor but cant find it...

did multiply the engine torque and inverse torque tables by 1.2 and power did increase a fair bit when NA at about 3500-4000RPM on over the standard torque tables

ive pulled the intercooler piping off and installed a NA MAP sensor in to try and work it out without boost in the equation first

attached is another log when NA where the speed density table was multiplied by 1.2 with the torque still multiplied

[RobCat030]

Barra's are awesome, I'm jealous. Just FYI I think there's an AUS section of the forum where you may get better help. I'll take a stab at it but I'm not too familiar with this.

This looks like a pedal follower that is still doing a torque calculation for plausibility checks. The torque inverse looks pretty jagged, I would probably try to smooth it out and make it at least slightly linear (and accurate, don't just throw a 120% multiplier at it), even though it isn't the source of your ETC request like it would be for us.

You also have some logic for a turbocharger in this calibration, I would use it. Populate the Desired Boost table under Airflow->Pressure Control and make it match what the wastegate is trying to produce. I assume that this will change how the car finds itself along the ETC PR function (which is present but missing from HP), which will then change the effective area that gets fed to your ETC Model. It may also be a hard limit on your MAP reading, which will clip load. Not sure. Because you have this table, I actually might be more inclined to tune just this and put the throttle tables back to stock (or the stock tables of wherever your throttle body came from). We have to change them over here because Ford didn't leave us much else to work with on NA conversions.

I would also say that taking the boost out of the equation (removing IC piping) probably wont help you much. The boost is what's breaking down the model, so you need to gather data for those conditions.

It looks like a "boost" sensor and MAP sensor are not the same thing. I wonder if this is a TIP sensor, and if you have/can have one equipped.

[mstang_man]

Barra's are awesome, I'm jealous. Just FYI I think there's an AUS section of the forum where you may get better help. I'll take a stab at it but I'm not too familiar with this.

This looks like a pedal follower that is still doing a torque calculation for plausibility checks. The torque inverse looks pretty jagged, I would probably try to smooth it out and make it at least slightly linear (and accurate, don't just throw a 120% multiplier at it), even though it isn't the source of your ETC request like it would be for us.

You also have some logic for a turbocharger in this calibration, I would use it. Populate the Desired Boost table under Airflow->Pressure Control and make it match what the wastegate is trying to produce. I assume that this will change how the car finds itself along the ETC PR function (which is present but missing from HP), which will then change the effective area that gets fed to your ETC Model. It may also be a hard limit on your MAP reading, which will clip load. Not sure. Because you have this table, I actually might be more inclined to tune just this and put the throttle tables back to stock (or the stock tables of wherever your throttle body came from). We have to change them over here because Ford didn't leave us much else to work with on NA conversions.

I would also say that taking the boost out of the equation (removing IC piping) probably wont help you much. The boost is what's breaking down the model, so you need to gather data for those conditions.

It looks like a "boost" sensor and MAP sensor are not the same thing. I wonder if this is a TIP sensor, and if you have/can have one equipped.

ROBOCAT Stole my Thunder, LOL torque was my next thing on the list after your Single turbo reply to original question.

[Singleturbofairladyz]

Barra's are awesome, I'm jealous. Just FYI I think there's an AUS section of the forum where you may get better help. I'll take a stab at it but I'm not too familiar with this.

This looks like a pedal follower that is still doing a torque calculation for plausibility checks. The torque inverse looks pretty jagged, I would probably try to smooth it out and make it at least slightly linear (and accurate, don't just throw a 120% multiplier at it), even though it isn't the source of your ETC request like it would be for us.

You also have some logic for a turbocharger in this calibration, I would use it. Populate the Desired Boost table under Airflow->Pressure Control and make it match what the wastegate is trying to produce. I assume that this will change how the car finds itself along the ETC PR function (which is present but missing from HP), which will then change the effective area that gets fed to your ETC Model. It may also be a hard limit on your MAP reading, which will clip load. Not sure. Because you have this table, I actually might be more inclined to tune just this and put the throttle tables back to stock (or the stock tables of wherever your throttle body came from). We have to change them over here because Ford didn't leave us much else to work with on NA conversions.

I would also say that taking the boost out of the equation (removing IC piping) probably wont help you much. The boost is what's breaking down the model, so you need to gather data for those conditions.

It looks like a "boost" sensor and MAP sensor are not the same thing. I wonder if this is a TIP sensor, and if you have/can have one equipped.

thanks! there pretty cool and reliable, i did already put a post up on the aus forum a few days before i posted here and still no luck, all the research ive done says there bolt on and require little changes one guy said fuel trims just needed touching up...

there isnt alot of info on the barras that i can find, tried a few things related to the US fords but didnt come up with alot

ill give it a shot, i have never needed to even fill in them tables as i use the NA ECU/PCM which has no factory boost control which them tables are for

car was running and boosting mint until the intake was swapped in

did increase a few tables like default barometric pressure and max barro learning pressure didnt make a difference

yeah i understand the data will be vastly different once its boosted just trying to figure out what exactly needs changing to get it where needed as even without boost in the equation it still does exactly the same thing just peaks the MAP sensor at 100kpa then drops MAP pressure when you keep on the throttle either boosted or NA...

on the factory turbo barras they come with a boost sensor in the cooler piping, its not needed on NA-Turbo conversions using the NA ECU though i have done multiple conversions like this

they run a T-MAP sensor factory (IAT & MAP sensor in one)

i cant even get it to make over 100kpa (0PSI of boost) then it drops map pressure

[RobCat030]

Okay, so just to follow along:

1) Intake was changed to a newer FG
2) Throttle was changed from when the car was running well previously (can you use this older throttle?)
3) MAP sensor was different from stock, but now you've went back to the stock NA sensor (1 bar?)

Have you tried finding a tune with the TB that you currently have (so an FG tune, I guess?) and copying that data over?

[Singleturbofairladyz]

Okay, so just to follow along:

1) Intake was changed to a newer FG
2) Throttle was changed from when the car was running well previously (can you use this older throttle?)
3) MAP sensor was different from stock, but now you've went back to the stock NA sensor (1 bar?)

Have you tried finding a tune with the TB that you currently have (so an FG tune, I guess?) and copying that data over?

originally first installed FG throttle body with the FG intake/inlet manifold, had the problem so switched back to a BA throttle body that was originally on the car as that was thought to be the problem...

same turbo 2 bar MAP sensor i was using previously, changed to a 1 BAR NA MAP sensor and been running that the last few days with the factory tune minus 670cc injectors

have been playing around with it a little more and finally got to throw the wideband on it, the injectors where tuned without it a few years back ran fine but was rich asf on the wideband, played around and got it at stoich with the injector values, doesn't idle as smooth as it did (at like 10 AFR) injectors seemed like they tuned perfectly before on the BA with BA manifold, it revved nice, idled nice, no flat spots ect. fuel trims weren't to bad

i did increase intake manifold volume to 14.25L (stock is 7.25L for BA and FG) that made a noticeable difference and made it rev alot nicer getting rid of most of the flat spots it had before, tried 18L didn't like it from the quick testing i got to do 14 was okay

it does still go lean for brief moment when revving i suspect reason may be injectors need adjusting again

looking at old logs from when it was previously boosted it was getting throttle errors same as when it was NA untuned stock so the throttle errors i suspect would not be the problem

in a few logs i did see that when logging throttle angle source, Torque Reduction- Driver Demand kicks in which cause throttle to shut and MAP to drop off

only Driver Demand table we can tune is the filter constant, Filter constant for the driver demand throttle angle. Based on percent pedal angle and current gear.
on this car stock this table is set to 1
on a few other newer model falcons its slowly increased, did try these tables before but didn't notice a difference, i have on my newer BF set the whole table to 1 and the car drove much better and felt like it had more power, from what ive researched its related to pedal/throttle

logging torque source it only ever says Driver Demand except for trans shift...

gassy FG intake, stock NA, 670cc dekas 61lb HSL,71LB LSL, offset multiply 0.8, 14.25 intake, 383.hpl

[Singleturbofairladyz]

tried multiple FG tunes and a mix and match of FG and BA ETC tables, since ive disconnected the cooler piping and been running it NA with NA tune ive got it much better then it was to start with, pulls very well NA feels about as fast as it should be but can see in logs torque reduction is kicking in

can also hear when the throttle errors start to kick in over say 50% throttle has a very slight sort of missfire (doesnt missfire though) revs smoothly... RPMs dont increase as fast as they should when throttle errors kick in, RPMS pretty much flatline or drop off, logging ETC area and vacuum ETC area starts to drop off even though RPMs and MAP can still be increasing

just hooked intercooler piping up for this run an it makes up to about 107kpa max even when holding it flat to just before limiter, boost does not increase

under 100kpa it builds MAP good like it should and doses/flutters until it hits 100kpa then it flatlines

tried setting ETC torque reduction for driver demand to 6000RPM and 1NM torque but that didnt do anything tried same with the spark and fuel cut torque ratios

driver demand filter constant has been set to 1 pretty much the whole time, tried zeroing out that table with no difference

have increased throttle body airflow and seems slightly better but tuning the ETC predicted tables hasnt done alot for throttle errors by increasing or decreasing the values

theres still a lean spot when stabbing the throttle, increasing the intake manifold volume doesnt really make a difference to fix that issue but did fix the first flat spot issue

this is the turbo tune file
gassy FG intake, boosted 670cc dekas, inj bkpt 835, LSL 82lb, HSL 71lb, offest 63958, NA FG ETC .hpl