Injector spreadsheet doesn't work?

[blindsquirrel]

If the file you want to pull data from is a late, post-'09 file, do not use the injector conversion spreadsheet. It will give you bad data.

If the IFR table has a limit of 63lb, it's an early ECM and will work with the spreadsheet. But most of the 'good' injectors come from later 127lb-limit files, and these do not convert right. The spreadsheet was created before the 127lb ECMs were out in the wild, so it was never made to work with those.

screenshot.26-06-2022 06.11.23.png

screenshot.26-06-2022 06.11.31.png

The column axis labels on the early ECMs goes from 128kPa to 640kPa, but the late ECMs go from 128 to 768. The thing that will trip you up is that both styles have the same number of columns/cells, so the data will paste into the spreadsheet just fine. However, because of the different scales the data will be taken from the wrong part of the table.

screenshot.26-06-2022 04.08.59.png

This is 2012 LSA injector data converted manually on top, and converted wrong with the spreadsheet on bottom.

screenshot.26-06-2022 04.09.57.png

[blindsquirrel]

And since somebody will probably ask, no, you cannot simply copy the relevant cells from the late file's 408 to 488 and paste that into the spreadsheet's 400 to 480 cells...

400 416 432 448 464 480 (6 cells)
408 428 448 468 488 (5 cells)

[dhoagland]

Thank You blindsquirrel,
My boss is doing a swap and I made this mistake.
Using the sheet it had me entering 54 in the first GEN3 column when it appears it needs to be 50 for the 12613412 injectors.

I'm judging this based off the Tune you posted some time back "1000th time is the charm". LOL
He is Running 58 PSI, NON Vacuum referenced

[dhoagland]

Found one I didn't realize I had, and I know I need to stop relaying on these sheets and learn to do it myself.

EDIT
Again Thanks for pointing this out

[blindsquirrel]

I keep meaning to write up a how-to, but every time I start it seems like it's going to be 30+ screenshots along with a bunch of diversions about fuel pressure and regulator type. I end up convincing myself it would be a book nobody would make it all the way through.

[Tranzman]

I keep meaning to write up a how-to, but every time I start it seems like it's going to be 30+ screenshots along with a bunch of diversions about fuel pressure and regulator type. I end up convincing myself it would be a book nobody would make it all the way through.

I know this a 3 month old thread, but you would be surprised at how many would read it.
I've been rebuilding transmissions since 1976 when i did my first 350 turbo.
For example there is a tread on the LS1 Tech forum on the 4L80E lube circuits. It is a book with tons of illustrations. I have read the whole thing and have subscribed to the thread. for me it's a very good read and refresher for myself & others that have stated as such.
A post like that would help a lot of newbies more than you know...

[TheMechanic]

I'm in for the read. Never can have to much info. Often it is the simple things that you just miss or was never clarified. I will often get those "Oh that's why you do that". Or a "Can't believe I missed/didn't know that".

[blindsquirrel]

I guess it can be simplified. All this assumes a non-referenced 'returnless' system at 58 PSI. For a different rail pressure you just use a different section of the source data. For a referenced 'return' system you only use the one column from the source data that matches the base pressure (43 PSI base would use the 300 kPa column, frinstance).

You have to open the two files in separate editor windows, you cannot use the compare feature. The tables are too different.

These are the only parts of the late-E38/E67 tables that the Gen3 file uses:
01 prep.png

I find it helps eliminate distractions if you zero out the parts of the source tables that are not going to be used. Also zero out the entire tables in the target file before starting to make it easier to keep track of where you are.

Copy and paste the cells that match (or close enough), then interpolate across the empties:
03 IFR cells.png
(You can get all fancy if you like and convert to get rid of the 8kPa misalignment... really not enough of anything to make a difference, though. Your fuel pressure will probably not be exactly 58.0000 PSI anyhow. It's the shape of the data that makes the most difference, not so much the exact numbers.)

The Offset table process is similar, it's just 3D:
09 offset mid-point.png

I find it helps to put the source file on the left and target file on the right, since 'c' is left and 'v' is right, and this is done by "click ctrl+c, click ctrl+v". It's a LOT of clicking back and forth.

When all of the available source data has been pasted you're left with:
10 offset after pasting.png
Then interpolate ONLY between individual cells that have data in 'em. Interpolate vertically across the empties. Once all the columns-that-are-not-zeroes have been done, you can then highlight from entire column to entire column and interpolate horizontally.

Short Pulse Adder CAN be done with the spreadsheet, those axis labels did NOT change from early to late. But it can be done by hand as well. If you are a masochist.

ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS look at the tables in 2D/3D when you think it's done. Sanity check. Fat-finger errors will happen. Save often, preferably incrementally with a new filename for each step. You will make mistaeks.

15 offset 3D sanity check.png

[blindsquirrel]

If you are a masochist and want the purity of a 100% organic hand-converted artisanal file, that Short Pulse Adder table...

Paste what's there, interpolate across what's not.
16 short pulse adder.png

Compare them after in 2D and tweak as needed to get the shapes as close as you can.
17 short pulse adder 2D compare.png

The files have different minimum increments so the numbers will never be exactly the same. They can only be as close as they can be. This goes for the other tables as well, you can only get it as close as the file will allow and then move on with the rest of your life.

[The Black Sheep]

What's the harm in zeroing out the 1+ area of the adder and leaving the rest as is? What is the purpose of the short pulse adder anyway? Came here after struggling with the spreadsheet on a gen 3 with these injectors. Never noticed the cells are different from pre 09 to post 09. Good to know.

[blindsquirrel]

https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...brated-Success

[The Black Sheep]

So the short pulse adder is a compensation table for low PW, nonlinear flow from the injector. Looking back at it the name makes a lot more sense now. Can't wait to try out the corrected data on my customer's truck.

[Fast4.7]

I guess it can be simplified. All this assumes a non-referenced 'returnless' system at 58 PSI. For a different rail pressure you just use a different section of the source data. For a referenced 'return' system you only use the one column from the source data that matches the base pressure (43 PSI base would use the 300 kPa column, frinstance).

You have to open the two files in separate editor windows, you cannot use the compare feature. The tables are too different.

These are the only parts of the late-E38/E67 tables that the Gen3 file uses:
01 prep.png

I find it helps eliminate distractions if you zero out the parts of the source tables that are not going to be used. Also zero out the entire tables in the target file before starting to make it easier to keep track of where you are.

Copy and paste the cells that match (or close enough), then interpolate across the empties:
03 IFR cells.png
(You can get all fancy if you like and convert to get rid of the 8kPa misalignment... really not enough of anything to make a difference, though. Your fuel pressure will probably not be exactly 58.0000 PSI anyhow. It's the shape of the data that makes the most difference, not so much the exact numbers.)

The Offset table process is similar, it's just 3D:
09 offset mid-point.png

I find it helps to put the source file on the left and target file on the right, since 'c' is left and 'v' is right, and this is done by "click ctrl+c, click ctrl+v". It's a LOT of clicking back and forth.

When all of the available source data has been pasted you're left with:
10 offset after pasting.png
Then interpolate ONLY between individual cells that have data in 'em. Interpolate vertically across the empties. Once all the columns-that-are-not-zeroes have been done, you can then highlight from entire column to entire column and interpolate horizontally.

Short Pulse Adder CAN be done with the spreadsheet, those axis labels did NOT change from early to late. But it can be done by hand as well. If you are a masochist.

ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS look at the tables in 2D/3D when you think it's done. Sanity check. Fat-finger errors will happen. Save often, preferably incrementally with a new filename for each step. You will make mistaeks.

15 offset 3D sanity check.png

The interpolate function between known values works pretty well. I ended up sourcing the startup MAF curve values for my LS3 cartridge MAF from a GM Crate 525HP LS3 file. I put the data in where the HZ values lined up then interpolated between. Worked great for startup and tweaked from there. My housing is 2" shorter than ideal and the tubing has a bend before and after the housing out of necessity.

[blindsquirrel]

2012 Camaro ZL1 A6 2G1FJ1EP9C9800849 1370731764.hpt
P59 - 12598646 58psi non-referenced.hpt
P59 - 12598646 58psi referenced.hpt

[Fast4.7]

Now the real fun is getting late model Ford data into a GM. The newer Ford data does not convert using the Ford to GM spread sheet and I had to put alot of numbers on paper while using my old TI-83 graphing calculator. On my application, I am glad it is vacuum referenced. Only have one row of offsets to calculate and not a varied pressure across the injector. I would probably have calculated the end rows and the center row and interpolated between.

[Hondaeater]

I have different start numbers to input into spreedsheet.

[blindsquirrel]

The screenshots up above are not for converting LSA/LS9 injectors, it's showing the general process of what to take from where.

The LSA/LS9 injector is 53.0lb at 408kPa, or 59.1754psi. At 58.000psi (or 400kPa delta, or the Gen3's 0kPa vacuum) they are 52.5182445198538lb, which is the value used in the Gen3 files I posted.

[blindsquirrel]

DO NOT try to use the spreadsheet for late Gen4s with the 128-768kPa tables! They have the same number of cells as the earlier 128-640 format files, so the spreadsheet appears to work, but the data gets converted and put into the wrong cells! No spreadsheet for late Gen4s!

[Fast4.7]

The interpolate function between known values works pretty well. I ended up sourcing the startup MAF curve values for my LS3 cartridge MAF from a GM Crate 525HP LS3 file. I put the data in where the HZ values lined up then interpolated between. Worked great for startup and tweaked from there. My housing is 2" shorter than ideal and the tubing has a bend before and after the housing out of necessity.

I tried 2 different MAF curves to see where they fell for startup. The 525 hp and the Lingenfelter. I too interpolated between matching values on the 525 MAF. On my setup the Lingenfelter was a better starting point. I found both were very lean in the 3,500-7,500 hz range on both engines I have that MAF on. I too have a bends before and after the MAF. On my 383 it has 90* coming out of the air filter housing and a 45 into the TB bonnet hat on my Vortec which is also a 90* turn into the throttle body. On my 8.1L the MAF is toward the middle of a long straight shot of pipe. There is a 90 off the air box and a 90 off the throttle body and a long straight shot of tubing between.

[Hondaeater]

Can someone please compare/ check the injector data using this updated Excel?

I have updated the Excel for more accurate data migration and easier plug n play.